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Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: TJ Hopland on December 30, 2011, 02:49:14 PM

Title: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: TJ Hopland on December 30, 2011, 02:49:14 PM
Recently came back from looking at new cars with a friend.   He just got a big promotion at work with a big bump in his expense account and can actually afford a new car in the class of a Caddy.  I cant so I dont even bother looking at the current models.  I will find out in maybe 10-15 years when I can afford one.   The newest Caddy I have personally owned was a 95 Deville.  I only had it for about 6 months.  It had a decent ride (for a transverse FWD) but too many other features that they for some reason left off the model that other cars in the class had at the time, It just did not make it a good fit for me at the time so I traded it in on something else but figured things would be improving and some day I would get a newer one that had everything I wanted.  We rode together on this shopping trip because he was actually thinking it would be possible that he could be driving a new car home, that is how serious he was.  My friend has owned several cars including a few Cads.   The last several years he has often had a lot of rental cars so he as got to experience quite a variety.   One thing we know we dont like is the Euro stiff sports like feel.  If we wanted that we would be looking at Benz or BMW.   Guess what every Cadillac feels like now?  Including the DTS which is apparently supposed to be the 'classic' Caddy....

I love the classic RWD land yacht feel that Cadillac had for so many years.   Even my 80 Eldo is a little stiffer than I would like but when compared to the current cars even that is a boat.   Everything now seems to have pretty stiff fancy suspension which is made more uncomfortable by the standard what 50? series tires?  Why even bother putting air in them if there is no side wall?   They might as well just wrap solid rubber around a 30" wheel.   

Next trip is going to be to go check out Lincoln but I suspect they are going to be similar.   Im really bummed now because when I have nothing to look forward to buying when they get old enough to get in my price range.   

My friend and I cant be the only 2 people that like that old land yacht ride are we?

Another thing we encountered was the Cadillac sales people practically tried to chase us off the lot.  Just because he gets a kick out of riding in it I drove my 80 Diesel Eldo which is in less than perfect condtion.  There was one older sales? guy that sort of smiled when he walked by and said you sure dont see many of those around anymore.  Im a working man so I dont have fancy clothes.  My friend normally wears a suit but is on vacation so he was dressed casual.   No one came up to us when we were walking around the lot but it looked like there were several people keeping a close eye on us.  When we went into the building a person met us and asked us why we were there.  He asked in a way that made us think that he would have rather said 'there is nothing for you here'.   I would have walked out but he really wanted to get a closer look so it took some talking to prove that he was serious and he did end up driving a few models and the sales person was very helpful and knew his product, too bad none of it seemed to be what he was looking for.  I remember getting the same treatment back in 05? when the SRX? came out.   A sales person didnt even seem to want get off his chair to come outside and open one for me to look at.  I even told him that I was not looking to drive one yet just wanted to see how the interior was arranged.  I was so mad I never even gave it a second chance, I ended up buying a loaded Dodge the next day for not a lot less than the base Cad I wanted to look at.    Anyway back to the recent trip, on the same day we also hit an Audi, VW, Subaru, and Buick/Chev dealers.  All of those we were treated like potential customers. 

Open to hear what others think of the recent / current line up or how they have been treated looking at new cars.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: okccadman on December 30, 2011, 03:10:27 PM
Being in the Limo business, i get to drive lots of Cadillacs, Lincolns and other luxury makes.  The last truly smooth riding car in my mind is the Lincoln Town Car, which just ceased production.  The last Cadillac was my 1996 Fleetwood Brougham.  It is smooth powerful and still gets close to 25 mpg on the road.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: TJ Hopland on December 30, 2011, 05:12:42 PM
I suppose the Town Car maybe survived this long because it shared parts with the Marquis and Crown Vic?  And all those models combined made it worth the trouble to keep em in production?

Even the DTS didnt have much space in the back compared to what they used to be.   Cabs now days are a joke.  Even the mini van ones are usually a little tight. With 'Americans' getting bigger it seems that space in the cars is getting smaller. 
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Dan LeBlanc on December 30, 2011, 08:59:14 PM
I bought a CTS three years ago. I sold it this spring and bought a VW that's how disappointed I was with it. You wouldn't catch me dead in a new Cadillac. The VW so far seems to have better all round quality than the Cadillac and is not all loose and rattly like the Cadillac was.

GM has lost my vote.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: TJ Hopland on December 31, 2011, 12:12:08 PM
CTS wagon was one that we drove and both came away with the same impression, it didn't feel like a $40,000+ car.  Maybe 30 but we could not see paying 40 for it. The overall finish sort of had a cheap plastic feel to it.  It also did not have what we thought was a Cadillac ride.  Maybe that is the 'sport' part of the wagons?  And the Sedan would be softer?

I did drive an Eldo around 05 before I bought the 95 Deville.  I dont remember the year, it would have been in the 2000 range.  I do remember really liking it but at the time I needed more space.  I was driving a Roadmaster wagon at the time so dropping to a 2 door would have been too big a jump.  That Roadmaster was a great car, one of my favorite daily drivers ever.

When they first went to the letters didnt they have a models like SLS vs STS?  Wasnt that Luxury vs Touring? What was the difference?   Wasnt the touring a little stiffer?   

Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Alan Harris CLC#1513 on January 02, 2012, 03:19:00 PM
Edsel Ford was once asked why the company stopped making the K serles senior Lincolns.

His answer was "We didn't stop making them. The customers stopped buying them".

Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Davidinhartford on January 03, 2012, 09:59:32 AM
I find the ride in my 2007 DTS is very comfy.   Several people I know said they wouldn't buy a DTS because it was too floaty!   

So I guess it is all about what you are comparing it to.

I've rented many many Town Cars over the past three years.   They are just boat like in comparison to my DTS.     I've also rented a few new CTSs.   Fine cars, but just too narrow to fit me and the shorter wheelbase sacrafices the ride in my opinion.     The DTS was just right.   
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on January 03, 2012, 12:16:45 PM
No big mystery guys,
The "Cadillac ride" resulted from the stability that weight, power, adequate tires, and a long/wide wheel base provides.  The last (standard production) heavy cars were the 76's, and speaking from my personal experience, my 76 Coupe is rock solid and smooth.  When they started paring the cars down in 77 they reduced the weight and size in incremental steps.  At each "downsizing", compromises were made in the handling and ride "envelope" in an attempt to maintain a "luxury" ride.  When they got down to the current size platform, there is very little difference in physical dimensions between just about any vehicle.
Just to remind you that a '66 Cadillac weighed in at about 4800 pounds, while the same year Impala was about 3700. You know the difference in ride, and there is very little difference in the design of the suspension components.
The newer you get, the further you get from the "Cadillac Ride".
Greg Surfas
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Mike Josephic CLC #3877 on January 03, 2012, 05:08:55 PM
The new "low profile" tires with the narrow sidewalls and 21 inch rims
may look really "cool" in the showroom -- but they make the ride very
harsh.

Like it or not, the tire is part of the overall ride package and this new
variety doesn't help.  There's very little sidewall to flex and cushion
the wheel.

Mike
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on January 03, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
Maybe the new Cadillac "Ride" is the new Standard of the World?

But I suppose the next question is "When did Cadillac start making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality"?

Those very early cars must have been real bone breakers.   Big wheels with "O" Ring Tyres and buggy springs.

Bruce. >:D

Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Dan LeBlanc on January 04, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
Putting ride quality aside and looking at build quality, like I said earlier, the build quality of my VW is far superior to that of my CTS.  The 2.0L turbo engine is much more responsive, the fit and finish, and quality of materials is far superior to that I found in my CTS.

So, the question should be, when did Cadillac stop making quality cars?  I've driven newer DTS's and the like and they're just not stacking up to their import counterparts.

The new commercial I saw not long ago stated, "we don't just build cars, we build Cadillacs."  My response was, "yeah, and?"  They're not what they used to be!!!!
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on January 04, 2012, 11:59:45 AM
Dan,
With all due respect, neither are we.
Greg Surfas
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 04, 2012, 12:44:27 PM
Most Cadillacs ride pretty well. Here's my short list of Cadillacs which I personally found a bit disappointing- to various extents.

Seville '76-'79
Cimarron '82-'88
Brougham '87-'89 (non d'Elegance only)
DeVille '94-'96
Eldorado '92-'97
Seville '92-'97

The most comfortable car seat I've ever sat in- '79-'80 DeVille w/leather.


Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Dan LeBlanc on January 04, 2012, 02:26:55 PM
I remember my dad fixing a 76-79 Seville frame that had rotted out when he had his body shop.  Rotted out completely over the rear wheels on the driver's side.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Rob Troxel on January 04, 2012, 03:48:15 PM
I have some Volkswagen headlights as well as some BMWs that were stuck the back of my  2011 CTS V wagon. Do you need them?  I have never owned a better faster greater handling car than the CTS V.  Times have changed, I still love my 68 Eldorado, but there are different levels of excitement.  GM is getting back to what it takes to gain market share.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Jason Edge on January 06, 2012, 02:47:42 PM
I have found the 1995 Fleetwood Brougham to be the Best Riding Car of any make, model or year that I have owned and would love to find another 95 or 96 Fleetwood. It was big enough to give you the Cadillac Float, but powerful, agile and handled like a dream. 

I've been into 63's and 64's the last 16 years and have all new suspension on my 64 CDV and it really rides great, but that 95 Fleetwood was out of this world.  At this point I love 'em Big and Powerful and guess that's why an Escalade is my daily driver.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: INTMD8 on January 06, 2012, 09:26:18 PM
I'll throw my opinion in on this. 

I think the demise of the "Cadillac" ride is due to magazine testing/etc.

I for one can appreciate, and enjoy, a classic Cadillac that floats down the road. I know, that for it to be able to ride like that there will be compromises in handling.

Problem is, with the magazine and various other "comparo's" they will take all the latest "luxury" cars and pit them against each other on a road course or similar.

Now, I've driven a lot. I mean a LOT of miles on the street and rarely witnessed anyone approaching the handling limits of their car's on an off-ramp.   Considering that, do I really care about an 07 DTS's time around VIR or the Nurburgring? Really, that's my deciding factor?

All the luxury car manufacturers want to brag about class leading handling because they forgot handling is not the priority in the class they are in.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Greg McDonnell on January 07, 2012, 12:48:12 AM
I have owned many Cadillacs in my lifetime...My '78 CDV D'Elegance was one of THE most comfortable cars I have ever driven.  Wish I  had it back...would like to have another one!  Good looking, plenty of power, quiet, and fun to drive!  I also currently own a '77 Seville with a mere 40k original miles.  Very comfortable car and no rot anywhere-rare color combination and almost fully loaded-turns heads everywhere I take it.  Also own a '98 SLS that is very nicely equipped and currently has 43,xxx original miles on it.  I like the way it handles but it doesn't have that big car feel like my '78 CDV had... My '66 Eldoado rides and handles nicely for a 46 year old convertible...It's fast and has a lot of torque and does have that big car feel and boulevard ride...nice and cushy. Just recently drove a low mileage '05 Lincoln Towncar on a 300 mile round trip.  VERY comfortable, quiet and pleny of power...reminded me of how Cadillacs USED to feel. 

Greg McDonnell
CLC #20841
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Greg Powers on January 10, 2012, 03:01:13 PM
The real Cadillac ride disappeared when Cadillac retired the last of the Broughams and Fleetwood Broughams. The rear wheel drive combined with the weight and power of the cars gave them a smooth luxury ride. As was the fate of all of the automotive industry when they abandonded this ride in pursuit of "road feel". They left "Town and Country" in pursuit of "Road and Track". As has been previously stated as the wheels get larger and the sidewall of the tire shortens, the comfort of the ride is reduced. Perhaps some day a luxury ride will return, but I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: TJ Hopland on January 10, 2012, 10:48:25 PM
Anyone know what killed the Brougham, Roadmaster, and Caprice?   I presume the sales were alright but that line maybe needed a major update to meet current standards and maybe an update in the manufacturing process to make it a more efficient build?   Those all put together just not enough possible sales or too big of a price jump to make it worth it?
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on January 11, 2012, 02:22:05 AM
Wasn't it because they went to Front Wheel Drive, and therefore the bodies didn't have to be as large?

BUT, it would also have to be with making more money.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Aaron Hudacky on January 11, 2012, 02:47:09 AM
TJ,

Sales were declining on all three Arlington, TX built full size GM RWD cars in the 90's while full size SUV demand was increasing rapidly. GM decided using the Arlington plant to build Tahoes and Yukons was more profitable than using it to build Fleetwoods, Roadmasters and Caprices. Arlington still produces SUVs today.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: R Schroeder on January 11, 2012, 07:43:07 AM
I'm with Greg,
The best riding car I have been in is my 78 CDV.
With 20,000 on the clock, it will pleasure me for many more miles.
I love the color and the handling too.
I think the ride was lost when they went to struts all around.
Roy
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 11, 2012, 08:47:13 AM
That's a beautiful CdV, Roy. I had the twin to it- Triple Mulberry I believe. Agreed 100%- the best riding Cadillacs were '78/'79 IMHO.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: gary griffin on January 11, 2012, 10:43:49 AM
Is it possible that government mandated fuel efficiency standards and safety standards had anything to do with it??
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 11, 2012, 01:18:25 PM
Indirectly it did-  by incentivising/penalizing automakers to build lighter FWD unibody cars which definitely have their shortcomings as far as road isolation/ride is concerned. Ultimately however, it was the marketplace itself that killed the traditional Cadillac. Few of today's consumers genuinely appreciate the difference between a "real" car and typical modern iron, let alone pay the premium it would entail. And these days few even want to know about anything that doesn't get at least 20-25 MPG- no matter how great the sacrifice to comfort and ride.   
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: R Schroeder on January 11, 2012, 05:08:09 PM
Thanks Eric,
I really do love the car.
Roy
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Greg McDonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:30:47 PM
Roy,

Your car is indeed beautiful!  Believe this or not, my '78 CDV D'Elegance was Triple Mulburrry!  I absolutely loved that shade and received many compliments on it while I owned the car.  I miss that car a lot and wish I could someday find another.  You are one lucky fellow to have such a beautiful example with such low miles!

Greg McDonnell
CLC #20841
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: R Schroeder on January 13, 2012, 07:40:21 AM
Thanks Greg,
When the fella sent me pictures of the car, I was off to buy it the next day. Called up my friend and we went to get the car. It was about 220 miles south of me. Good day trip. Only had 11,500 miles on it, at the time.
I like that color very much. The only other ones that I have seen like that were on Ebay. From what I understand it was only on the 78's.
One of the nicest cars I have ever driven.
Roy
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: jaxops on January 22, 2012, 11:29:46 AM
1976.  The beginning of the end for quality.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 22, 2012, 12:21:34 PM
Quote from: jaxops on January 22, 2012, 11:29:46 AM
1976.  The beginning of the end for quality.

Ooooh- I'd have to disagree there. 1977 Cadillacs were much improved over their 1976 counterparts (IMHO). The new 1977s had better noise isolation, improved handling, better performance, rode better, improved fuel economy and FAR more resistant to rust. The new 1977 styling was fresh while remaining true to Cadillac. Customers agreed and sales increased each year until 1979 which was Cadillac's all time highest production year with 385,000 units sold- a number unsurpassed to this day.

Although the 1977 models lost 10" and near 1000 lbs, interior dimensions remained unchanged and useable trunk space increased. The exception was the Fleetwood Brougham had less rear space than the '76 model due to elimination of 60 Special 3" longer wheelbase.

1977-1979 standard Cadillacs were among the best overall cars Cadillac ever produced (IMHO) and were virtually indestructable. It was not uncommon for owners who usually bought a new Cadillac every 2-3 years, to keep their 1977-1979 cars for 7-10+ years.

Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: TJ Hopland on January 22, 2012, 04:30:35 PM
Quote from: ericdev on January 22, 2012, 12:21:34 PM
. It was not uncommon for owners who usually bought a new Cadillac every 2-3 years, to keep their 1977-1979 cars for 7-10+ years.

The question then was was it because the 77-79's were that great or was it because they saw didn't like the similar but underpowered (not to mention bad rep) cars 80-85?  And then the hope was the next gen cars were going to be 'better' but they turned out to be nothing like what they were for size and comfort so they just kept them a little longer?   Probably didnt help that the owners of those cars either now had families or were about to retire so maybe they could not afford a new Cadillac even if they liked them?

For some reason there is something about the look of the 77-79 Deville I didnt like.   The early 80's were nice especially the Fleetwood Coupes.   I didnt used to like the 79-85 E bodies but those have really grown on me recently.   I bought my 80 just because it was a diesel and I wanted something odd and different to play with.  I love that car so much its pretty much a daily driver for me.  I really did like the ride of my 78 Deville.   I like the rest too but even after I quit driving the 78 the few times I drove it before I sold it I had second thoughts about selling it.     
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 22, 2012, 05:25:57 PM
Hmmm. I speak of people who consistently bought new Cadillacs for cash every couple years- these were often wealthy retired folks who could easily continue to afford a new Caddy every year. Being in the business, I knew many of them. True the V8-6-4/4100 reputation didn't help with a few of the more astute buyers but honestly, few kept up with that sort of thing. With very few exceptions, everyone loved their 1977-1979 Cadillacs.

One more thing: Pre-'77 Cadillacs rotted out within a couple of winters 'round these parts. Even the most metculously maintained examples exhibited premature rust bubbling around the lower edges of their vinyl roofs, silver dollar sized rust beneath the bodyside trim, and rusty rocker panels within a few years. Never was this the case on 1977s-up that had even the most basic care. No doubt a factor in ownership longevity.

-The same was the case of all GM's full sized cars pre-1977 concerning rust issues. 
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: dirkdaddy on January 22, 2012, 11:42:06 PM
Ok, I'm going to go against the grain. These land yaghts have floppy suspension and enough rubber bushings to make the road feel disconnected. I can't stand riding in these cars that almost make me ill from sea sickness. My grandfather owned a '72 Sedan Deville that I drove when visiting him and it was horrible. The big bordello style bench seat, fingertip light over assisted steering, super touchy over-assisted brakes, fit and finish that even for the era was poor.  Handling was not percise but ok on larger roads, but regular turns in town caused tire squeal. Strong points were it did have a lot of room, the engine was powerful (although thirsty) and the HVAC system was good.

I have ridden in smooth riding small cars, the Tempo (I was given one long story) had very smooth ride but also the floppy suspension made handling so bad I nearly ran it into a ditch just following a friend in an Accord that was going the speed limit down a road with a few curves.

My dad owns a STS and DTS, the STS is OK but not really a fan of the DTS. Both feel nose heavy like they are. He's having to replace motor mounts at about 65k b/c GM didn't make a top dog-bone on the Northstar, places a lot of stress on those bottom mounts.

I'll take the smooth ride in a hearse when the time comes. For now I'll stick to other cars.
Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: Aaron Hudacky on January 23, 2012, 10:20:33 PM
I agree with everyone regarding the 77-79 rwd cars. They have an outstanding combination of all attributes regarding handling and powertrain durability, and even decent driveability, which surprises me for cars of this era. I still drive my abused 79 daily. It is beat and looks like it has been through WWIII, but the suspension is still tight, it rides well, and when new, I would've preferred it to my 2008 STI. The other nice thing is that lots were built and they don't quit easily, which is why they are still relatively easy to find and affordable. I love them with a bare painted roof, but those seem tough to find. With careful use, I've gotten 20mpg from a tank of gas with mine.



Title: Re: When did Cadillac stop making cars with the classic 'Cadillac' ride quality?
Post by: jaxops on January 29, 2012, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: ericdev on January 22, 2012, 12:21:34 PM
Ooooh- I'd have to disagree there. Although the 1977 models lost 10" and near 1000 lbs, interior dimensions remained unchanged and useable trunk space increased. The exception was the Fleetwood Brougham had less rear space than the '76 model due to elimination of 60 Special 3" longer wheelbase.
You said it!  Amen!