Author Topic: Forum Use  (Read 10055 times)

Offline StevenTuck

  • Posts: 585
  • CLC Member # 16507
  • Name: Steven M. Tuck
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 08:45:37 AM »
Finally, someone in the trenches willing speak up. Thanks Tim.

With that said, let me reiterate a few points. Before there was the forum, do you think the CLC sent out free Self Starter magazines to nonmembers until they decided whether to join or not? Before there was the forum, do you think the CLC allowed nonmembers to advertise items for sale for free in the Self Starter? Nonmembers can currently use the forum as an information resource or sales tool...all for free! Meanwhile the members foot the bill.

We need to think long and hard about the forum and its role in the CLC.
1962 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz
http://bit.ly/1NfPNHE
Car Show Signs and Car Photo Books
http://carshowsigns.net/

Offline STDog

  • CLC#24051
  • Posts: 188
  • Thomas Dodd
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2012, 09:17:02 AM »
Finally, someone in the trenches willing speak up. Thanks Tim.

Yet you only read half of what he said.

Quote
Before there was the forum, do you think the CLC sent out free Self Starter magazines to nonmembers until they decided whether to join or not? Before there was the forum, do you think the CLC allowed nonmembers to advertise items for sale for free in the Self Starter? Nonmembers can currently use the forum as an information resource or sales tool...all for free!

Everyone pays to get the magazine, and everyone pays to advertize in it. CLC member or not.

No one pays to use the forum for information, for sales, or to provide information.

If you want to say the CLC members pay for the forum, I suggest you look at what it costs.
As mentioned above,  unlimited bandwidth and unlimited storage web hosting can be purchased for under $100/yr.
Let say there are 10,000 active CLC members to pay for the forum. That's $0.01/yer per member. You are really going to complain about a penny a year?

Now, the forum isn't the only web presence. The same bill that pays for the forum also pays for the rest of the CLC website.
So really, the forum cost is even less.

But see if you can get some hard numbers form the CLC as to the cost of the whole web site, the forum, and number of members, and how the dues are disbursed.


I suspect there are a few members that would happily pay for the forum so that it remains free for all who wish to use it.
I'd trade the magazine for the forum any day. So, take the portion of my dues that pay for the magazine and apply it to the forum so that it stays open to all. There that's 1/4 the cost. Who else?

(and if they are paying more than $100/yr I'll help them migrate to a lower cost host for the forum.)

Offline Glen

  • Posts: 2270
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  • Name: Glen Houlton
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 01:06:34 AM »
Another factor to add into the math is the advertising.  There are two ads on every page of the forum.  How much do the advertisers pay for that?  Do they pay by the month or by the click? 

I wonder how many people have Googled something about their Cadillac and was directed to this forum.  After getting the standard great and friendly help from those that have the knowledge and are more than willing to help others the visitor decides to join the club so they can then go to the various meetings and benefit from the other services of the club.  In other words I think this forum is a great outreach to get more members. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Offline StevenTuck

  • Posts: 585
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  • Name: Steven M. Tuck
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 03:45:57 AM »
Outreach is good. The topic was started by saying that some time limit, to be determined, needs to be set. I am sure those whom we have elected will weigh each factor and make a decision. At least they have many opinions to consider from all of you who took the time to express yours. Thank you all.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 06:25:43 AM by StevenTuck »
1962 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz
http://bit.ly/1NfPNHE
Car Show Signs and Car Photo Books
http://carshowsigns.net/

Offline D.Yaros

  • The Gray Lady, a '55 Coupe de Ville
  • Posts: 778
  • Ed./Pub. Car Collector Chronicles
  • Name: Dave Yaros
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 12:08:29 PM »
The topic was started by saying that some time limit, to be determined, needs to be set. I am sure those whom we have elected will weigh each factor and make a decision. At least they have many opinions to consider from all of you who took the time to express yours.
Am I to understand that revision of access to this forum is "officially" being reviewed?  Guess I did not know that.  Nor did I know that we could not afford to keep access free to all with an interest in Cadillac.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 02:10:34 PM by D.Yaros »
Dave Yaros
CLC #25195
55 Coupe de Ville
92 Allante
62 Olds  

You will find me on the web @:
http://GDYNets.atwebpages.com  -Dave's Den
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http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros  -Saved 62 (Oldsmobile) Web Site
The home of Car Collector Chronicles.  A  monthly GDYNets newsletter focusing on classic car collecting.
http://www.scribd.com/D_Yaros/

Offline StevenTuck

  • Posts: 585
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Re: Forum Use
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2012, 05:18:30 AM »
Dave,

You are not understanding it correctly. I said a time limit NEEDS to be set. I also said they will weigh each factor and make a decision. I didn't say a decision was made. This topic was for open discussion on having it done.
1962 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz
http://bit.ly/1NfPNHE
Car Show Signs and Car Photo Books
http://carshowsigns.net/

Offline STDog

  • CLC#24051
  • Posts: 188
  • Thomas Dodd
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2012, 08:10:01 AM »
I am sure those whom we have elected will weigh each factor and make a decision.

I also said they will weigh each factor and make a decision.

I think the use of will implies that the board is considering it, and that's what Dave was commenting on.

Perhaps a better phrasing could have been used to make it clear this is not something currently being considered by the board.

Offline CDV

  • Posts: 28
  • Name: CDV
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2012, 08:47:50 PM »
Steven,

I have joined the CLC again.  Only fair to pay my dues to use the forum.

John Washburn of " Washburn's Wisdom " SS mag fame and Tim Coy of SS mag Art director fame are good friends of mine. To quote " The Johnny " he's a useless fount of Cadillac info but he's priceless and helped me out numerous times, Tim Coy does a bang up job on the SS so I'm on-board.
 
I only own a lowly Plain Jane 66 CDV so I'm not concerned about losing my anonymity here with my valuable fancy collectible rare Cadillac's and posting my real name.

Porter Littlefield

CLC # 21919




Offline Matt

  • Posts: 26
  • Name: Matthew Taylor
Car Clubs in general
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 02:44:12 AM »
I joined the CLC back in 2002 in order to attend the meet in Michigan, mostly because the PCS International was the week before in Grand Rapids.  I had some not entirely positive experiences at that meet in Detroit, and did not renew my membership in the CLC.  Fast forward to 2012, and I again joined the CLC in order to attend the St. Augustine meet - this time held the week before the PCS International Meet in Daytona Beach.  This time around things were great, and I wish that I could attend the 2013 CLC meet in Boston.  If I had been prevented from visiting the CLC forums occasionally in the intervening years it is likely that I would not have changed my mind and given things another try with the CLC.  Keep in mind that I haven't missed a PCS International meet since I joined that organization in 2001, and have driven one of my Professional Cars in more states than I haven't.  Car Clubs must remain relevant to the next generation or else they will fail.  It is really that simple.  The internet is vital to attract attention to the Club in the Electronic Era, and the one thing that the Forums must do is keep the attention of new members long enough to entice them to attend the annual International Meet. 
Matthew Taylor
PCS MO Route 66 Chapter President

Offline StevenTuck

  • Posts: 585
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  • Name: Steven M. Tuck
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 05:36:55 AM »
Matt for those of us including myself, what is the PCS International? How long have you been a member? Does this group have a free forum that is funded by the group?

SENARIO: Someone buys the foreclosed house next to you. You meet this person and they ask if they could hook up a garden hose to your house to use while they do some renovation work. You agree believing that this will only be temporary and the neighbor will soon get a water connection. The neighbor continues his renovation which runs into months. A year passes and your neighbor still has the garden hose connected to your house. All this time you have been paying your water bill while he has been using your water for free. What would you do?
1962 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz
http://bit.ly/1NfPNHE
Car Show Signs and Car Photo Books
http://carshowsigns.net/

Offline STDog

  • CLC#24051
  • Posts: 188
  • Thomas Dodd
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2012, 07:23:55 AM »
Matt for those of us including myself, what is the PCS International? How long have you been a member? Does this group have a free forum that is funded by the group?

PCS = Professional Car Society (hearses, ambulances, limos)
Matt mentions joining PCS in 2001.
The forum doesn't appear to require membership in PCS to participate.

Quote
SENARIO: Someone buys the foreclosed house next to you. You meet this person and they ask if they could hook up a garden hose to your house to use while they do some renovation work. You agree believing that this will only be temporary and the neighbor will soon get a water connection. The neighbor continues his renovation which runs into months. A year passes and your neighbor still has the garden hose connected to your house. All this time you have been paying your water bill while he has been using your water for free. What would you do?

Not at all similar. The difference in costs for the forum should be negligible if even noticeable. As mentioned you can get unlimited bandwidth for under $100. Same cost for 100 users or 1000.

Offline StevenTuck

  • Posts: 585
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  • Name: Steven M. Tuck
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2012, 10:34:27 AM »
Thomas,

I appreciate your view as I am sure others do. You stated the same view previously but didn't respond to the specific question. I hope Matt responds and specifically to the question asked.

I understand that you think the cost of the forum is minimal and thus it should be free to all. In the same note, joining the club is a minimal cost and thus shouldn't be a deterint to joining the club. Driving our cars to one show or event costs about the amount to join the club. I believe everyone can certainly afford to join the club if they can fill up a car at a cost of $100. Therefore, to put in place a reasonable time frame to use the forum for free should not be an issue.
1962 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz
http://bit.ly/1NfPNHE
Car Show Signs and Car Photo Books
http://carshowsigns.net/

Offline Jason Edge

  • Moderator
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      CLC Member #14225
  • Name: Jason Edge
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2012, 11:36:09 AM »
It's very easy for me.

--> If you are a member you have full access to the forums and can actively participate as long as you are respectful and civil toward other members under the general forum rules and guidelines.

-->If you are not a CLC member you have read only access...nothing more and nothing less.


If you want to participate and be an active member of the forum you sign up to the CLC.  As a proud "Life" member I feel I've paid my dues and as long as I show common courtesy to fellow CLC members I should enjoy the privilege of using our club's message boards, which as Tim pointed out is funded by our membership dues and the club.   

So my recommendation has always been very simple: full access for members and read only access for non-members.  If you like what you see, join up, help us fund the forum and club and become a welcome part of our great club. 

For those that want to remain a non-member you would still have read access to come and search out information.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 11:43:12 AM by Jason Edge »
Jason Edge
Director CLC 1963-1964 Cadillac Chapter - www.6364Cadillac.com
VP CLC Eastern NC Region - www.clcnceasternregion.com
email - jasonedge@nc.rr.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT
2012 SRX Performance Edition

Offline Jason Edge

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  • Name: Jason Edge
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2012, 01:07:01 PM »
I will add that I agree with the original post in part, but I believe that non-members that have had full access to the CLC forums be given a transition period to join the CLC.  During that period of time they have to continue to respect the Forum Rules and the CLC and understand that they are posting on our club forum as a guest and that this access is a privilege, not a right, and can be taken away.

After that time period all non-members would have read-only access, but of course have the option to join and become active members.
 
Jason Edge
Director CLC 1963-1964 Cadillac Chapter - www.6364Cadillac.com
VP CLC Eastern NC Region - www.clcnceasternregion.com
email - jasonedge@nc.rr.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT
2012 SRX Performance Edition

Offline STDog

  • CLC#24051
  • Posts: 188
  • Thomas Dodd
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2012, 01:17:41 PM »
I appreciate your view as I am sure others do. You stated the same view previously but didn't respond to the specific question. I hope Matt responds and specifically to the question asked.

Which one?
The poor analogy or the use of the PCS forum by non-members?
I don't own the appropriate car, though I know quite a few owners, thus have never investigated further.

Quote
Driving our cars to one show or event costs about the amount to join the club. I believe everyone can certainly afford to join the club if they can fill up a car at a cost of $100. Therefore, to put in place a reasonable time frame to use the forum for free should not be an issue.

I've never taken a car to a show. Doubt I ever will. I have attended 3 GNs though.
I'm only a CLC member today because of the Modified Chapter and duties there.

It's not just minimal, its insignificant. We could host the entire CLC web site, forum included, for $60/year. Even give everyone a @CLC.org email address. That's using the same host that the MCLC uses, with full control, not just web based admin, but full access shell login.

A few others like me who don't want the SS could fund the whole CLC site using the $5 postage fee.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 01:20:11 PM by STDog »

Offline Glen

  • Posts: 2270
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  • Name: Glen Houlton
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2012, 12:45:34 AM »
While I see the point that non members should have limited access if any I still don’t agree such a policy should be created.  There is little cost to the club to include the non members and it is a great benefit for both members and non members. 

If such a policy was instituted that would require someone to manage it.  That requires constantly checking the current membership list to see if the new guy is a member.  It is possible that Simple Machines allows expiration dates to automatically return a member to non member status when their membership expires.  If so that would make it a little easier on admin, but if Simple Machines does not have that feature then admin would have to set up some kind of reminder system to manually make the change.  Also admin would have to be notified of everyone’s renewals so he does not cut off a paying member.  Similarly admin would have to be notified of all new members. 

It seems to me that the cost of the man hours involved in maintaining the list and adding/removing accounts would far exceed the cost of allowing everybody access.  In other words it would be more expensive to oust the non members. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Offline StevenTuck

  • Posts: 585
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  • Name: Steven M. Tuck
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 06:07:00 AM »
Thomas,

You asked which view, both since both are basically the same. The analogy was mine and thus not your view. You defined PCS International which is not a view.

You know I didn't even have to say I appreciate your response or as I am sure others do. I said that honestly and out of respect. I would appreciate the same. You do not have to be defensive or rude in your response.

"I don't own the appropriate car, though I know quite a few owners, thus have never investigated further."

Regarding your statement above, it seems that many of those in the modified chapter seem to have some chip on their shoulder against those of us in the stock part of the club. We don't have a chip on our shoulder again the modified chapter. We have been receptive and the board created a specific category just for the modified chapter.

Regarding my analogy, you could have said you disagree. That would have been the civil reponse but you had to grade my analogy as if we were in school. That was unecessary and rude. If you want respect then give it.
1962 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz
http://bit.ly/1NfPNHE
Car Show Signs and Car Photo Books
http://carshowsigns.net/

Offline STDog

  • CLC#24051
  • Posts: 188
  • Thomas Dodd
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 07:27:10 AM »
You asked which view, both since both are basically the same. The analogy was mine and thus not your view. You defined PCS International which is not a view.

You asked a question about the PCS forum, and you asked a question in your analogy. I just wondered which you wanted Matt to respond to.

Quote
Regarding my analogy, you could have said you disagree. That would have been the civil response but you had to grade my analogy as if we were in school.

I didn't grade it, just characterized it based on my knowledge and experience. I certainly didn't resort to personal attacks. (or attack a whole chapter)

I see it a s a poor analogy. I explained why, though perhaps I wasn't clear.
If the neighbor doubled your bill sure it would bother most. But if his water usage was less than 1% (and your $50 bill was now $50.50) would you even notice? And to be appropriate to the forum usage, it'd less than a penny difference.

Your analogy implies a significant usage by the neighbor (roughly equal to your own), when that's not the case here.
Hence the analogy is a poor one.


Offline Matt

  • Posts: 26
  • Name: Matthew Taylor
PCS
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 05:25:38 PM »
The PCS is the Professional Car Society.  We promote the appreciation and preservation of passenger-car based commercial "Professional" cars such as Hearses, Ambulances, Limousines, and Flower Cars.  I was under the impression that everyone knew about the original Hearse and Ambulance Car Club.  The "International" I referenced is the PCS International Car Show and Meet that is held yearly - in 2012 we were in Daytona Beach, FL, and in 2013 we will be in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  We do have a website that is associated with the Professional Car Society that is self-funded by Site Supporters.  There are certain sections of the website that are reserved for PCS members and Site Supporters - however there is no charge to visit the site and participate in any of the areas that you have access to.  The website has no problem paying its bills thanks to active users, not all of them PCS members, who donate money to the website.
I did not respond to the analogy because the comparison is ridiculous.  The CLC Website has far more potential to benefit the club by bringing in new members than it could ever cost.  I agree with restricting some access to certain parts of the forums to members only, mostly because not everyone needs to see all of the clubs business, but the main function of the website, and that of the SS, is to encourage members to attend CLC Grand National meetings.  The point of my initial post was to caution against taking actions against potential members that will tend to repel them vs attract them.  How many teenagers these days look for a Cadillac as their first car?  How many people under the age of 25 were in attendance at the recent St. Augustine event?  New blood is the life of any club, and this is a problem that every car club will eventually face.  This is a serious subject, and the actions taken now will have an impact on club membership far into the future.
Matthew Taylor
PCS MO Route 66 Chapter President

Offline CDV

  • Posts: 28
  • Name: CDV
Re: Forum Use
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2012, 09:23:33 PM »
I only learned of the CLC because of the internet forum and that was back in the stoneage 2002.

Made plenty of great friends and received some great technical repair advice.

Twenty years ago before the internet became a viable means of communication I would assume all the CLC members somehow learned of the club from word of mouth ?

I reckon the vast majority of the new club members in the last ten years were generated by the internet.

Hard pressed to see the point of cutting non club members off from the forum after a given time period.

You can't force anyone to join the club but " Washburn's Wisdom " in the SS mag is priceless and a bargain for $ 30 on line.

Porter Littlefield

CLC # 21919


 

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