Author Topic: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.  (Read 2540 times)

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2017, 12:07:25 PM »
Nearly there, just have to prime the oiling system, fit the manifold and centre cover and install it back in the car.

When I prime this engine, it will get done on TDC, then turn it over for 1 stroke by hand, prime again, repeat, and repeat. The engine will arrive back at TDC and all bearing, lifter, pushrods, rockers everything, is lubed.

I'll also make sure the lifters and pushrods are turning during the priming procedure. If they aren't turning then, there is a very high chance, they won't turn when running and will wipe off a lobe on the new camshaft. No second chance on a flat tappet cam.





« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 12:21:47 AM by Jeepers Creepers »
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline Ralph Messina CLC 4937

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2017, 12:32:47 PM »
Kevin,

It may be a temporary set up but, why is the oil filter pointing up rather than down?

BTW, is there a more elegant engine color than Cadillac dark blue?
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2010 GMC Yukon

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2017, 12:50:54 PM »
Kevin,

It may be a temporary set up but, why is the oil filter pointing up rather than down?

BTW, is there a more elegant engine color than Cadillac dark blue?

Hey Ralph, the filter faces that way on a 429.... the way Cadillac intended.  ;)
At least, it does on our car.....  :o
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline Ralph Messina CLC 4937

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2017, 03:15:40 PM »
Kevin,

Looked at earlier pics you posted and I see it is correct orientation. I know the front over on a '64 is different than later years but I thought it was minor. Attached pic is from my '66 and the location changed dramatically.

Carry on.... You're doing a beautiful job.
1966 Fleetwood Brougham-with a new caretaker http://bit.ly/1GCn8I4
1966 Eldorado  http://bit.ly/1OrxLoY
2010 GMC Yukon

Online The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2017, 07:25:41 PM »
You probably won't be able to see the lifters rotating when turning the engine by hand.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'55 Buick Special Post Coupe (LHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing RHH
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2017, 08:22:30 PM »
You probably won't be able to see the lifters rotating when turning the engine by hand.

Bruce. >:D

You put some witness marks on everything and yeah, they should show a change when they turn. (It won't be by a heap, but they will begin to turn.)
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2017, 01:50:07 PM »
I passed a good milestone today, priming the engine with oil. I spent a few minutes this morning designing a tool for the job and spent $20.00 with the welding guy up the road.

This is a really important step in any engine rebuild and starting out on TDC is best.

 1st thing, is put a small witness mark on every pushrod and the top edge of every lifter.

2nd.....Oil filter and housing back off, pour oil down the secondary housing to flood the oil pump gears. Refit the oil filter housing and fill the oil filter with oil. Fill engine with 4 litres of oil and proceed to wind up oil pressure.

3rd.... Turn engine over for one stroke and repeat oil pressure priming.

Keep going, until number one cylinder is back on TDC to fire, you have now completed a full 4 stroke cycle of the engine and the engine is oiled up ready for a start up.

Now, go back to your witness marks and make sure each and every lifter has begun to turn and do the same with the pushrods.

If the lifters in particular, haven't turned at all..... STOP and find out why, as you'll destroy the cam and lifters on start up.

When I do my witness marks on the lifters and pushrods, I just use a black permanent marker felt pen. Just a tiny dot on everything is all that's needed.
I did take a couple of pics to show how much the lifters/pushrods should turn and i'll pop them on here later on.

I need the wife to load 'em into the computer for me.....  :-\
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2017, 01:11:58 AM »
You probably won't be able to see the lifters rotating when turning the engine by hand.

Bruce. >:D

Hi Bruce, this is how it worked out.

1st photo, has every lifter and pushrod marked.





In this photo, you can see the pushrods have all started to shake their booty.



The lifters are the most important to have moving of course and I forgot to take a pic of them, but trust me, they did do the "Caddy Shuffle."
For the Aussie members on here, this is an excellent oil for our old flat tappet monsters.



Well, the car is all prepped now ready for an engine. (Except 4 trillion wires and hoses everywhere)



The engine now only requires the dizzy and coil fitted and it can go in tomorrow..... except.....until yesterday, some dill (ME) forgot to order the new engine mounts, so I get to stand around and twiddle my thumbs for a few days. 

 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 12:23:05 AM by Jeepers Creepers »
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Online The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2017, 02:28:06 AM »
I am using Castrol 10W40 in my 500.

I thought 20W60 would be a bit too dense, even in Queensland.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   I have never watched my lifters turning as I always complete the engine before spinning the pump.

PPS.   What was the oil pressure?   That is important to me.
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'55 Buick Special Post Coupe (LHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing RHH
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2017, 02:34:14 AM »
No gauge connected at the time of priming mate, just wanting to oil the engine throughout prior to a kick in the guts.
I've kitted and rebuilt the oil pump, so whatever they had new is what it should now.

I will gauge it when I start it though.
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Online The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2017, 02:46:01 AM »
I always plumb in a mechanical oil pressure gauge to any engine I rebuild.   Nice to know what the relief valve is set to.

Easier to add or remove a shim before it is in the engine bay.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'55 Buick Special Post Coupe (LHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing RHH
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Carl Fielding

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2017, 04:31:33 AM »
Kevin , the T' Devil' has got it. A bit too tactful , he : that 20W/60 would certainly be too dense in Q'land , perhaps even in the territory from which the H' Devil hails ! Oils should operate within a temperature/viscosity envelope which precludes even 20W/50. Please google up  Selection of the Right Motor Oil-draft 17  33 pages which YOU need to read. When you are through , you will know more about engine oil than 98 , or 99% of the people who have not read it. You will then see why the Amsoil Z-Rod 10W/30 , with plenty of zinc and phosphorus will be the best oil for most conditions. I gather Q'land gets rather hot from time to time. If need be , you could run Z-Rod 20W/50 half & half with the lighter , for a 15W/40. If you plan on going to H' , probably go with the heaviest stuff. It may just save your engine , if not your soul.  - Carl

P.S. : Neither Richard Widman , (the author of the definitive 33 pg. PDF distilled from API and SAE tech journals , for the benefit of all literate car guys) , nor I , have any connection to , nor represent Amsoil in any way. Having made that disclosure , as long as you are at the keyboard , Google up Amsoil. Read what Z-Rod is , and check out the break in oil they make while you are at it. Flat tappers , indeed ! I am very glad you brought the subject up. As careful as you are , .................  - CC

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2017, 11:59:08 AM »
I'll very politely agree to disagree on the oil gentlemen.

The oil we're using will be fine for the application.... but thanks for caring.  ;)

This is the link you care to have a look.... http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjNs-u418bUAhUHFJQKHRdnDUQQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.penriteoil.com.au%2Fproducts%2Fhpr-30-20w-60-mineral&usg=AFQjCNGnRHLcaOqvIYqfj94VezQtlsw50Q&sig2=iacmugFrOjZ18g60GGUjlQ
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 12:42:25 AM by Jeepers Creepers »
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline Carl Fielding

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2017, 06:00:23 AM »
Hi Kevin ! Decorum noted. And thank you for recognizing one of my faults. I do care . To a fault. Of course I studied your Penrite link , and read thoroughly about relevant products. I do , and have used several Penrite products for quite some time. Richard Widman, the author of the definitive work I recommend to you , knows several orders of magnitude more about lubricants than you and I together. Have you found time to read it yet ? Almost all who do so have some of their misconceptions shattered. I am one of the great majority. You will be too , accruing to the benefit of your engines. I certainly don't react to someone politely disagreeing with me. I would regard someone who disagrees with a world class authority on anything as a bit of a fool. For example , there is a minute fraction of the population who believe that the world has not been getting warmer , even in the face of melting glaciers all over Earth , and ocean temperatures rising everywhere. That is the very definition of global warming. Those who don't understand , and rail against objective reality , are by definition, fools. People who simply don't know what synthetic oil is are not fools at all. They just need to learn a "new trick". One never learns so well as when having long held biases shown to be erroneous.   - Carl

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2017, 02:55:38 PM »
To be honest Carl, no I haven't had time to read it yet.
I didn't know you guys had Penrite in the US, learn something new everyday.  :)

Another reason I went with the Penrite oil I did, was it came highly recommended by the mechanic that did the rotating assembly for me.
He's built engines for 5 and 6 second drag cars all the way down to grandpa spec stockers.
During his years, he also did 5 years in an engine machine shop.

He's a highly respected, very talented guy.
I will get to read the article you mentioned when time permits..... but I gotta say.... it won't be this week.

Now, for some news on the Fleetwood, the new engine mounts arrived yesterday, so i'm odds on to be fitting an engine this week-end.
In fact, being winter here and the lawn mowing has finally slowed a tad, I might, if I can get all my ducks in a row, be able to start the installation on Friday.

I'm lucky the mowing has slowed a tad, I've been waiting for a new gearbox (arrived yesterday) for mower #1 and then mower #2 popped an axle yesterday just as I finished a mow. (parts arriving Thursday for that one)
Lucky, mower #3 is still a runner...... I just have to repair 2 mowers and do the Caddy install this week-end and I have my 94, yep.... 94 year old Mum staying for the week as well. 

Its all happening at my house this week.... :o 
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline Carl Fielding

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2017, 06:21:34 PM »
Kevin ! .....? I'm trying to do the math : burst another pre-conception in what remains of my mind. From your phenomenal energy and productivity , I had assumed you are what I was in my 30s - early 40s. But that does not compute ! Here is to your Mom's continued good health ! You too , as you obviously have inherited some very strong genes ! Salud !
 
In my case , (back to topic) , I had to read "Widman" twice. I will only be 73 in a few days , but my doctors warn me that with all my health issues , I am physically more like a guy in my late 80s. I agree. Concentration is a problem , and it takes me forever to do even simple routines. I think I should read "W" a third time. I am sure that without his graphs , it would not have got through to me in ten readings. I am 100% sure you will "get it" , "single pass". As I mentioned, W. has put into informed layman's terms , the relevant conclusions derived from tech journals. I do not know what your profession may be , perhaps you are able to drink from the source. In my more alert past , I ocasionally tried to read tech journals regarding my second most expensive hobby , (astronomy/telescope engineering) , and I found it a humbling waste of my time. Browsing bookstores , I used to squander money on the occasional book , which did not have one paragraph out of 1400 pages that I could fully understand. Chandrasekhar's "Radiative Transfer" (the physics of stellar energy production) , is heavier going yet for me. Gives me that slap in the face I need from time to time to moderate the internal retention rate which tends to fill me up with myself from time to time. Nothing but normal reading for any car folk embodied in "W". Please enjoy as time permits. I , and an AACA forum friend , a Ph.D. Kiwi , frequently implore others to "learn-up" via Richard Widman. As did I , the erudite Kiwi Professor had long held misconceptions zapped , we each re-trimmed our sails accordingly.

O.K. , I have just imposed on your time a bit too much. And Spring is yielding to Summer here. I hope you live in one of those very temperate regions of the Austral Continent where pleasant climate is enjoyed year 'round.  - Carl

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2017, 01:16:20 AM »
Carl ol mate, I'm 57 years old for the record. (Last month actually)

Knocked over 4 mowing jobs before 12:00, came home, painted some nut and bolts ready for the week-end and fitted the new engine mounts.
I've jagged Friday off, so will start a day early doing the install.

The plan is, motor in on Friday, double check everything Saturday for a Saturday start up. Retention the heads on Sunday morning, bonnet (Hood) back on Sunday afternoon and all done and dusted......... THATS THE PLAN...... 

Carl, google Tin Can Bay Queensland and you'll see where I am. If God owned Tin Can Bay, he live here and rent out heaven.  ;D

We are well into the first month of winter here, lows of 12 to 16 Celsius and highs of 22 to 24 Celsius. Buggered if I know what it is in Fahrenheit.
Maaaate, ya wouldn't be dead for quids.
 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 01:18:00 AM by Jeepers Creepers »
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline Carl Fielding

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2017, 04:59:30 AM »
Well ! Thank you for the fantasy trip to your beautiful area ! I see what you mean. In a way , it has some resemblance to a combination of Hawaii, Florida, and Costa Rica. Very , very nice ! And I learned that the average Winter temp is 20 C. (1.8 X temp C) + 32 means that it is 68 F , or a very comfortable Winter , perhaps like some delightful areas of California. Now what about these "shark dives" ? If it is safe , sounds like a thrill ! (Hmmm..... I suppose some people would find it a more satisfying thrill if NOT safe !). We hear about Australian sharks. I wish I could still travel that far. I have a nephew who with his wife moved to Tasmania. I would have liked to visit very much.

Kevin I am very curious as to the condition of your oil pump on tear down. Maybe I should re-read all this. See what I mean by needing to read things 3 times ? Maybe you have covered it already. If so I will go back again. I used to have a very good memory. The good side of it is that I can see a movie that I like several times , months apart, and in some ways it is like I never saw it ! At any rate if you covered it and I forgot , just say "go back and read again". I do remember having trouble with the oil pump on my '65 Eldo , but that was about 45 years ago , so it is a bit like 2 or 3 weeks ago by now.

Belated Happy Birthday , Kevin ! I will be 73 on Argentine Independence Day. If I had been born there , I would automatically have been exempt from military obligation ! And my name might have been  - Carlos

P.S. : I might be obtuse, but what does your last line mean ?

Offline oldcarguy

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2017, 12:14:20 PM »
Carl,
I think it means you will live for a long time yet !! But whatta I know, just an old [litterly] Tennessee hillbilly!
Anyhoo, I hope that's what it means and hope that it is prophetic...
Don

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: Another Survivor, getting a make-over rather than a resto.
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2017, 12:19:45 PM »
The oil pump as in pretty good condition Carl, just took a very light touch up on the faces etc and install new gears, spring etc and back together.
I'll have a gauge on it for start up, but it had oil pressure quickly with just a normal ratchet bar on the made up drive tells me it should be pretty good.


"ya wouldn't be dead for quids."

means life is just too good to be dead,  to be very happy and well; have too much fun
   
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 12:23:53 PM by Jeepers Creepers »
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.