News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

What will we do when all the old shops, close up shop?

Started by 64\/54Cadillacking, June 06, 2017, 02:20:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cadillac ken

Jay: if only we could have more guys like you that could experience an operating shop the way you did perhaps we in the business of working on these old car treasures would have it a little easier.

Robert, on the bright side...Just to add... in Florida where my business is located the consumer is specifically protected by a division of the state that has passed a "motor vehicle act".  My shop opened about the time when that was effected 25 years ago.  The act requires registration of the shop (for a fee of course!) and a list of guidelines we as a Motor Vehicle Repair Shop we must submit to and adhere to. Shop Estimate and Invoice forms must be submitted and approved to have all the correct information right down to correct specified type size of it's contents. And we are required to provide a written estimate for every customer.  Not that it can't be revisited, but I have to document that any increase was discussed with the customer.

When I started my shop, I realized a big problem then as it is now, that customers are often wary of the costs and without a concrete figure (which as you probably know is impossible to give in this business) they felt very insecure about any project that they had in mind.  So with that, I instituted the use of the Weekly Labor Log as well as a Monthly Parts and Materials Log.

Labor Logs are kept on a weekly basis by hand each day the car is worked on and is required of employees as well as myself.  They are a short narrative of exactly what was done and how long it took to do it.  My Saturday or Sunday ritual is transcribing those hand written Weekly Labor Logs into the computer and either e-mailed or sent regular mail to the customer-- A lot of work, but very important for both my shop and the customer.  If I have 2 hours removing a broken bolt there is a detailed description of exactly what was entailed and why it took so long to do what seems like a simple task.

This all has resulted in a very good relationship with every customer with one customer who sold his car at a Barrett Jackson auction including a nicely bound notebook of every Weekly Labor Log he was given.  A nice piece of documentation for those bidding on a car they otherwise would know little about.

But with that said, money is money.  And while many folks have the funding to do a car, I find that the costs just don't seem to be worth it to them anymore (?)

The Tassie Devil(le)

A Cadillac Service shop would go broke if it had to  "back-train" mechanics to work on older Cadillacs as they would have very little access to parts to service the older cars, which is not in the interest of Cadillac as it is in the market to build and sell new cars.

Plus, us older car owners couldn't afford the hourly rate that dealers charge.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

dochawk

Just to be sunny and cheerful . . .

I'm actually more worried about fuel than mechanics.

I seriously question whether gasoline, as we know it, will be easily available forty years from now, which is about when I'll probably need to give up driving, given my family history.

I expect it to be hard even in 20 . . .

I'm gloomily assuming that we're going to need to figure out how to run on hydrogen and alcohol . . .

In a brighter note, though, we have the potential to start "scanning" the good parts we take off while working on other things, or doing frame-up jobs, etc.  These scans could go into a CLC or AACA database for 3D printing and the like.

In the meantime, I expect to learn enough woodworking to replace some of the trim in my '72.

hawk
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: dochawk on June 10, 2017, 08:37:55 PM
Just to be sunny and cheerful . . .

I'm actually more worried about fuel than mechanics.

I seriously question whether gasoline, as we know it, will be easily available forty years from now, which is about when I'll probably need to give up driving, given my family history.hawk 
I have a feeling that I will be looking around at all the battery packs that are going to be a part of the "Electric" solution, and there is enough room in my Caddy after I strip out all the petrol stuff, and fill the voids with Battery Packs that I strip from newer vehicles.

Increase the number of batteries, and power aplenty.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

dochawk

There's something about replacing a 500cid engine with batteries that is just . . . wrong . . .

Yes, the power can be replicated, but it just wouldn't be the same.

1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

The Tassie Devil(le)

Properly set up, it would produce even more power, but one would have to also fit one of the new radios/sound systems that generate the engine noise that some makers now do.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

dochawk

Getting it mimic the *proper* power and torque, as well cycling them for the simulated transmission gear, would be no small feet of engineering . . .

For that matter, it will require generating the power up front and sending it through the drive shaft to make response right (OK, no driveshaft on Eldorado).  We're probably only a couple or few years from seeing the electric motors appearing as part of the hub and wheel (many tries have been made; once someone solves it, the torque advantage will be compelling).

hawk
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

Jay Friedman

#27
egolessego,

The owner of one of the Cadillac dealers here in the Atlanta area has joined our regional group, has hosted several old car shows on his premises and has informed us that his service department would be glad to work on our older Cadillacs.  In fact, one Saturday a few months ago he hosted a "clinic" where regional group members brought their vintage Cadillacs in to the shop, had the cars raised on a lift and 2 of his mechanics diagnosed any problems they found with the cars.  The mechanics, one an older guy and the other probably in his 30s, seemed pleased to be participating and both seemed very knowledgeable about Cadillacs as old as the 1940s.  This may be unusual compared to other dealerships.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

64\/54Cadillacking

Dealerships are usually the first ones to deny service for older classics. A few years ago, I took my 61 Lincoln Continental to a Firestone, and they refused to work on it, not even to replace the tires! A Caddy dealership near me worked on My 94 Cadillac Fleetwood which is "modern" enough where they are still willing to service it, but anything in the 80's on down, they won't accept.

So in time, even corporate chains won't want to touch our cars. I don't understand it, especially if it's just general maintenance items, like brakes, tires, and hose replacements. It's not like they are that hard to work on, if anything, they are easier in certain cases, almost like working on a full size pickup.

Sometimes I wonder myself if I can keep up with all the things that I need to fix on my cars, I understand that somethings are expensive to replace and or repair, but the cost for specific repairs are mind-boggling expensive. Chrome plating is one example, auto body and paint is another. It gets to a point where you start to question the hobby, this is why I don't care if my car isn't 100% because I know in order to get it to that point, I would be spending a fortune, money that I don't have.

This hobby is catering more towards the wealthy every day as the cost of labor, even the parts, are getting way too expensive for the regular Joe to do.

So the concerns are legit for not only the hobbyist but the shop owners as well. In order for shops to make money, you need to profit, but with materials cost constantly on the rise, how is one supposed to stay in business?

It's a domino effect that sadly can't be reversed. I know some shops that are barely able to pay the bills, they aren't getting rich off repairing cars, so in the future, you have to question the profitability in the job itself.

Working for an auto parts store first hand, I can tell you, every shop wants their parts for the lowest price possible, but they charge the customer double so they can profit. It's messed up, and sounds cruel, but that's how business works. This is why it's always best for us car guys to buy the parts ourselves since we save a ton of money and just pay for the labor. NO warranty is guaranteed but at least you know you are using good parts, vs parts store crap that usually doesn't last that long.

It would be nice if certain Domestic dealerships offer classic car service. They might charge more, but at least you'd know the mechanic working on your car has been trained on how to diagnose a car that is full of vacuum lines and mechanical mechanisms. It would be interesting what the future holds, and there will ever be a school or a place where prospective techs can receive training in older vehicles.

There's this one shop called Harolds near to where I live, and the owners are pretty old, somewhere in their 70's still working on cars, the shop inside looks like you are still in the 50's. They love their job, and every car you see in the yard, are all 70's on down, nothing modern or new.

It's set up this way because they like the old stuff, but the time will come when they too will retire, and it will never be the same.

Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

kkkaiser

in almost every business,, health cost and liability cost are some of your more expensive cost,,,

they talk about healthcare on tv,, it s not healthcare,,, its the word insurance they are avoiding. 

and as an example,, my oddessy with my compressor this weekend... if i used my old thinking, before you tube, this forum, i would have towed it in, had them work on it, and do what i did,  and it would have cost me probably 800 bucks,, for one,, they didnt have the tools, (i went to ask if i could borrow the puller and the installer)  then, i would have to wait 2 days for a bearing, then for them to figure it out an put in it in.   All this stuff took me over 10 hours to fiddle with,, i bet they could have done it in probably 5 or 6, so i saved a ton, just by asking and receiving great advise.    the total cost was 27.00 for a bearing.  the parts store loaned me the puller and the installer. so i saved a bunch,,

you tube showed me how to change the fuel filter on my diesel  (the entire unit, not just the filter),  and other minor repairs,, as well as how to break down the compressor albeit a different compressor, but the concept was exactly the same,, so I'm glad these online options are around,, other wise i couldnt afford this car that i have...so,, thanks for all the help,,,

bcroe

Quote from: kkkaisermy oddessy with my compressor this weekend... if i used my old thinking, before you tube, this forum, i would have towed it in, had them work on it, and do what i did,  and it would have cost me probably 800 bucks,, for one,, they didnt have the tools, (i went to ask if i could borrow the puller and the installer)  then, i would have to wait 2 days for a bearing, then for them to figure it out an put in it in.   All this stuff took me over 10 hours to fiddle with,, i bet they could have done it in probably 5 or 6, so i saved a ton, just by asking and receiving great advise.    the total cost was 27.00 for a bearing.  the parts store loaned me the puller and the installer. so i saved a bunch,,

you tube showed me how to change the fuel filter on my diesel  (the entire unit, not just the filter),  and other minor repairs,, as well as how to break down the compressor albeit a different compressor, but the concept was exactly the same,, so I'm glad these online options are around,, other wise i couldnt afford this car that i have...

Good work, you are about where I was in 66 regarding my own car repairs. 
Keep after it, don't be afraid to buy a tool, that will make the job straightforward
and probably pay for itself the first time you use it.  Reasons to continue:
1.  HUGE financial savings, including finding best part sources;
2.  more confidence in the quality of the work;
3.  in many case savings of your own time;
4.  by keeping costs very low, it becomes practical to maintain a vehicle
      FAR beyond the point most would give up and spend BIG BUCKs
      on a replacement;
5.  by continuing maintaining a type of vehicle, you will become quite good
      at this model, without having to know everything out there like a pro;
6.  after a while you will have spares on hand to make quick work of common stuff. 
7.  less hesitation to keep up the (now very cheap) best maintenance, which
      includes alignment and transmission refresh here. 

This may not be you yet; it certainly is me.  Bruce Roe

cadillac ken

Something to consider about this talk of electric conversions.  The weight. 

My former partner used to work for a solar car company (basically and electric car but the company used solar in an effort to obtain grant money, rightly so).  they received a contract to build several S-10 pick up trucks for the county.  Plenty of room to work with but the added weight of the batteries was astronomical and the measures needed to accommodate that extra weight, even on a truck frame/suspension, were very involved.

They even built an electric Consulier (Spelling?) sports car for a customer.  There was not much success.  Room for the batteries as well as the weight was the killer of the project.

On the up side the S-10 would smoke the tires real good!! >:D  albeit dumping all the reserve power at one shot.  But still impressive and fun!!

bcroe

Electric cars, that are more than just overgrown golf carts, involve technology
to the extreme, stuff that wasn't even invented yet when my cars were built. 
That, and they still aren't directly competitive.  They are the extreme opposite
of cars you can maintain yourself.  And don't expect any of todays electrics to
be functional when they are near the age of my drivers. 

Bruce Roe

Maynard Krebs

#33
Earlier, Dave Smith wrote about how so many car upholstery shops have disappeared.

There's another type of very needful shop that's becoming rare:  good radiator shops.   My neighborhood had only one good radiator shop left (when there were 5 or 6.. a dozen years earlier)... and the 50-something owner suddenly died...... and now there is NO good radiator shop near me.

What made these places so valuable... is the selling of cheap, junk radiators.. made in Indonesia and similar places.   I bought one a few years ago:  it lasted exactly 12 months!   Another time I bought a Modine radiator for my wife's big GM wagon, from a shop in Providence, R. I..   It, too, died within 15 months!

My one good radiator man left... got his from some place in Maine......... but who they were and where.. remains a mystery.

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

It is a shame about the neighborhood radiator shop.
One reason for the decline of those is that most all
of today's radiators are not worth rebuilding with
their plastic tanks.  The other is that many of these
guys had issues with high levels of lead in their
blood even up to lead poisoning.

Another very useful shop that is on the endangered
list are those that rebuild starters, generators,
and alternators.  There were at least half a dozen to
choose from around Pittsburgh 20 years ago, now I
only know of one maybe two.

Mike

1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

64\/54Cadillacking

True, a lot of the old school Rad and Starter/Alternator repair shops have closed up locally.

The main problem is not only the lack of business these shops are receiving thesedays, but redevelopment and revitalization of urban cores in cities where many of these older shops reside. Owners are tempted by the almighty dollar being waved at them from rich developers especially if they own the property.

Age of the owners and finding the people that know how to repair the old stuff is also another challenge for shops.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Scot Minesinger

The more you know about fixing older cars, the better off you will be on this topic.  Sometimes I hire out work I know how to do because life is too short.  I always tell them it is not about the money, it is about doing a great job.  After explaining that I'm paying for a good job and the hours that go with it, that is what I get and the cost is always about the same. 

This is a great topic, and I liked all the posts.  I fix cars for friends, mainly doing work most shops will not do, such as dash work and especially climate control.  You have to be careful about choosing your customers.  If someone complained about two hours spent removing a fastener, I would fire them.  Most of the people I do work for are thoroughly familiar with the practices of other shops.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Caddyholic

I use a rad shop the caters to the trucks and heavy equipment.
I got myself a Cadillac but I can't afford the gasoline (AC/DC Down Payment Blues)

1961 Series 62 Convertible Coupe http://bit.ly/1RCYsVZ
1962 Coupe Deville

jaxops

I agree with Dochawk.  Fuel will be the thing that cuts us off from driving older cars.  I am seriously thinking about giving up my 1997 Town Car, whose electronics are starting to wear out, for a 1979 Lincoln....but what about the gasoline?  Would I even be able to drive it in another few years?  I sure don't want a $50k car payment, so new cars are out for me.
1970 Buick Electra Convertible
1956 Cadillac Series 75 Limousine
1949 Cadillac Series 75 Imperial Limousine
1979 Lincoln Continental
AACA, Cadillac-LaSalle Club #24591, ASWOA

35-709

I have no doubt gasoline will still be around for a long time.  They're selling gasoline powered cars and trucks by the hundreds of thousands.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2