News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

4 all U high compression owners

Started by fishnjim, June 22, 2017, 11:11:37 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

fishnjim

I got this from "Hydrocarbon Processing".   Not sure I can post the article link - it's subscriber.   The picture has origins/rights/source on it - "EIA".
I haven't tried octane booster/race gas additives because overall prices are low here, but it may be economical now.   Ethanol lowers octane, always has, always will.   Thanks, Clinton EPA.

David Greenburg

I always use ethanol protection, like Marine Sta-bil, and octane booster on those cars that "ask" for it. I live on a big hill, and old cars make their needs pretty clear when going up.  Don't forget to thank Big Ag and the corn lobby for the persistence  of ethanol. Unfortunately  I don't think ethanol is going away any time soon, regardless of who is running the show in Washington.
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

Carl Fielding

Used to be that alcohol , ethyl and methyl , had HIGHER octane than gasoline. Less BTU , though , so mileage is not as good on the "moonshine" mix. The base stock gasoline in gasohol, as I understand it , is actually just a couple of points lower , and brought back up by the booze. I would like to see the referenced article , but as you say , I can't get it. Alcohol is for drinking , not for driving. I can't resist saying , (although I do agree with , and am thankful for the dedicated ladies) , "Where are the MADD in our time of need ?"  Occasional light beer or glass of red wine for me , thanks.   - Carl

INTMD8

Ethanol doesn't lower octane, it is much higher than most gasoline.

E85 for example can be used in place of most race fuels on high horsepower applications.

nolacaddy1960

Yeah a guy I know that races switched to e85 but it's rare here.
  I was wondering if anyone runs av gas in their cars?
100LL
  Its leaded and high octane.
    I have access to an airport with a self serve gas station.

dochawk

Ethanol, though typically higher in octane, contains about 2/3 of the energy per volume as gasoline.

Years ago, when I regularly dove 450 miles from San Jose to San Diego, I noticed that I got about 1mpg less when I bought gas at this station with an extra point of octane.

On learning about the energy content, I did the calculation.  10% ethanol (that was how they were booting the octane) means about 3% less bang per volume, or about 1mpg out of the high 20s.

I seriously fear that a couple to a few decades from now, we may be forced to convert our classics to ethanol, and possibly distill it ourselves, as gasoline becomes unavailable when electrics or fuel cells take over.

Or (shudder) hydrogen conversion . . .

hawk
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

35-709

Quote from: nolacaddy1960 on July 01, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Yeah a guy I know that races switched to e85 but it's rare here.
  I was wondering if anyone runs av gas in their cars?
100LL
  Its leaded and high octane.
    I have access to an airport with a self serve gas station.
You might find this enlightening and cautionary as to av-gas in cars.
http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/canirunavgas.php
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

TJ Hopland

I didn't think about the road tax issue with the AV gas.  There are for sure clear laws and significant penalties in every state about that but I wonder how they can easily prove it?   As far as I know its not like the not taxed diesel like fuels that are dyed.   There its easy they either dip the tank, take a sample from the water drain, or make you pull the filter.   Anything shows up pink you are busted.    Without the dye I would think it would have to be a lab sort of thing to look for the lead?      If the cops don't see you or a video of you pumping it directly in a car then driving on a public road I would think it would be tricky enough to prove that they just would not bother.

The side effects listed in that article fit perfectly the issues a friend that ran AV gas in his boat ended up having.   When he first got it it was actually a good running and starting motor.   After a few seasons of running that stuff if you could get it started it ran like crap.   You would think a boat would be closer to a plane as far as the constant loads they see but maybe its the altitude thing that really mucks it up?    I wonder if those deposits it mentions is one of the reasons you have to rebuild aircraft engines so often?

Back to Ethanol.....

What I have read is adding ethanol raises the octane rating.   They can take a 87/88 base gas and blend in 10% ethanol and they get 89/90.    Since 87/88 is the biggest seller they start out with an 85/86 base.    If it doesn't sit too long there really should not be a huge issue as far as octane and the slightly lower energy in that 10% should be well within the range of any engine to deal with.   If it does sit that increases the chances of it separating and absorbing moisture at which point things do get messy.   Most of your tank (or the tank at the gas station) could in theory end up with that base 85 stuff.    At the bottom where the pickup is you could end up with pure ethanol or more likely a mix of water, gas, and ethanol which isn't going to do well in any engine. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

fishnjim

I was only raising the price trend issue.   Just another way to get them off the road...
Sorry for the confusion, but I said "octane" not octane "rating".   
I was referring to ETOH lower energy content vs "octane" - what "counts".   More ethanol also means more ethanol subsidy.   So it's a $$ loser too. 
I try to avoid all the octane "rating" nonsense.   It's ritual, past its day.   I believe ETOH has a much higher RON, than MON, so if you're selling/promoting it...which one would you advertise?   
My opinion, I don't think they would be adding ethanol, if they didn't have to...
FYI: pump octane "rating" is (RON + MON)/2 and only helps confuse the issue.   If you're in a non-attainment area, at the pump, you're getting RFG regardless.   https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/federal-gasoline-regulations
I'll see if I can do the whole article somehow.   

jdemerson

In my experience, the biggest issues with ethanol in gasoline are:
1. ethanol lowers the boiling point of gasoline, and so makes vapor lock and hard starting more likely in older cars
2. ethanol is not compatible with many internal parts in older cars and with many small engine tractors, mowers, chainsaws, and so forth.

I've experienced no adverse effects from ethanol in newer cars; they are designed to work fine with ethanol. But I do wonder about the energy consumption in growing and distributing all that corn, and thus inflating the price of a crop important to feeding the world.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Sedan  6219X
John Emerson
Middlebury, Vermont
CLC member #26790
1952 Series 6219X
http://bit.ly/21AGnvn

dochawk

Quote from: jdemerson on July 03, 2017, 09:05:29 AM
I've experienced no adverse effects from ethanol in newer cars; they are designed to work fine with ethanol. But I do wonder about the energy consumption in growing and distributing all that corn, and thus inflating the price of a crop important to feeding the world.

The last figures I saw showed that it took more than a gallon of oil to make each gallon of ethanol.

The substance, as an automotive fuel, exists solely to pay ADM subsidies--but ADM has senators, so . . .

It has advantages in certain types of racing as a fuel, and as an additive, supposedly helps suppress certain exhaust fumes.

If you are going to make ethanal as a fuel, though, and are doing it as an economic activity, rather than to get subsidies or as a political statement, corn is one of the *worst* available choices to get your fermentable.

As long as I've wandered this far off topic . . . and again with oder data, but probably still true:  Every one of the areas with a starvation problem produces more food than needed for it's population.  In every case, it is either government or rebels preventing the food from reaching those who need it.   (Ireland was actually exporting food during the potato famine.  Better put, England exported Ireland's food production while it's population starved)

1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

Jay Friedman

As dochawk wrote, a friend of mine who formerly worked in the oil business told me the following, and I'm paraphrasing because I personally have little technical knowledge of this topic:

1. Ethanol cannot be transported by pipeline, so must be transported by truck.  As a result, because of the trucks' exhaust, the overall carbon "footprint" of gasoline containing ethanol its is greater, not less, than that of ethanol-free gasoline;

2. Ethanol is dumped in large batches of gasoline at some point before getting to your local gas station and not necessarily "mixed" in, such that any small amount of gasoline, such as a car's tankful, can contain greater or lesser percentages of ethanol, not the 15% or whatever it says on the pump.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

I don't  know where this thread was intended to go, but we seerm to have short memories on the subject of Ethanol.  The original intent for adding Oxygenation to gasoline was to reduce the Carbon Monoxide levels of our vehicle exhaust. Good idea, CO is poisonous.  One of the original and less costly methods was by the addition of MBTE.  Unfortunately MBTE seemed to leak through the storage tanks and into the ground water, hence literally Billions of dollars spent to dig up and remove contaminated soil and replace the tanks with "special" tanks with bells and whistles to prevent contamination of the sub soil.
An idea that was founded in ignorance of basic economics was to add Corn Ethanol as the oxygenation agent to gasoline. Never could this "pencil" out as either thermodynamically or economically efficient, but it was done. Fuel value of Ethanol is 60% that of gasoline, so adding 10% Ethanol to gasoline results in a mixture that contains 96% the fuel value of straight gasoline.
Remember, Ethanol cost more than gasoline, so distributors were not going to add more than the requisite 10%.

That aside, the discussion of gasoline's octane and other qualities is one that is not a simple discussion.  "Gasoline" as we know it today is a blend of up to 30 different chemicals in differing proportions to meet the "specifications"
of gasoline as the local jurisdictions require them.  Differences for seasonal, altitude and humidity conditions require differing blends. Octane rating is one of those and is achieved in differing ways with different blenders.  Ethanol itself has a much higher octane rating than the gasoline it is mixed with, but it is in such relatively small quantities (percentage wise) it is not depended upon for its octane improvement qualities.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

dochawk

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on July 03, 2017, 12:34:33 PM
I don't  know where this thread was intended to go, but we seerm to have short memories on the subject of Ethanol.

Dealing with high compression engines, I think.

Those of the era in question assumed a higher octane fuel, and all the fuel of the time had lead, needed as a lubricant for the high compression engines.  These were separate issues, although lead solved both.

Ethanal can save the octane issue (while creating other problems). but not the lead.

So going forward, how do we keep these precious heirlooms on the road?

Do I have this right?

And due to the sheer insanity of corn ethanal, its horrific side issues are bound to work its way into any discussion.
'hawk
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

fishnjim

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=31732

Go to source document via this link.   HP copied it, it's public info.

Re: Tetraethyl Lead - was developed and added as an "octane booster".  In the history of US refining, the early low compression motors had no problem using the distillate available.   Only after manufacturers increased compression, early '50s, to increase HP, did spark knock come into existence.   It was a real phenomenon, I've witnessed it.   This was the era of chemistry solving problems, and was relegated to the petroleum chemistry labs.
The BS about "lubricating" the valves came later.   I don't particularly ascribe to that theory.   If you think about it very hard and long, you'll see the chances of it doing anything is pure luck.   Passing intake valve it's in vapor form dispersed heavily in air (ppm), the exhaust, it's mostly passing as combustion products - lead oxide, COx, H2O, unburnt HCs, etc.   Back in the day, valves tended to get heavy deposits* and regrinds were a frequent need, until they went to harder alloy seats.   I know that will turn some heads, but I'm not beholden to any brand or product.   They had non-leaded gasoline available too, and percentage used that, and if lead was that necessary for valve "lube", these folks would have had suffered many more valve issues than the rest.   No such data I've seen.
So they put info out mostly as marketing BS, like ethanols high RON, and eventually people will believe it if they hear it enough times.   eg: Just why would one need "blue enzymes" to treat ethanol blended gasoline?   Pure marketing.   You put it in, it burns up, no one the wiser.   There's a whole segment devoted to OTC additives
* - I suspect was more a function of low compression, low energy spark, and poor carburation.