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Is this how members are treated?

Started by Cadillac Jack 82, August 04, 2017, 07:04:07 PM

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David Greenburg

Matt:

It's Sunday morning and I'm walking around the lot and your favorite CTS-V is back.  I'm going up to my room, but will leave a note on the windshield if it's still there when I come back.
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

Scot Minesinger

Matt,

Sorry you suffered thru this.  It could have been handled better no question.  People with late model Cadillacs were constantly trying to park in the lot that were not registered.  It was tough keeping them out when private security that are not rocket scientists cannot easily distinguish between late model show and late model non-show Cadillacs.  I kept a few late model Cadillacs away, so less people would be inconvenienced.

K8096,

Next year you can volunteer and be part of the solution.  The separate show filed on grass is unlikely to ever happen because if it rains, results are poor. Further, with the parking lot as show field, the show cars have a parking spot all week that is protected with wide spaces.


Thanks,

Scot
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

TonyZappone #2624

It is very easy to be critical.  However, here we have a member's weekend ruled by an jerk that just plain stole his place.  It would be very easy to have somone on committee checking numbered spaces.  Violators would need to know ahead of time that a violating parker would be towed.  No BS, towed away. 
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

bcroe

Seems like the simple thing to do, is check the lot just before taking over
access, and not assign any occupied space numbers to members.  If
numbers are previously assigned, look up the owner and give him a
new numbered space upon arrival.  Bruce Roe

Jason Edge

Sometimes it is nice to have a 6000 lb AWD Escalade EXT and a long chain. By Friday evening, and after all other attempts had failed, I would have taken care of the violator the good ole southern boy way ... wrapped a chain around the axle and drug it out of my assigned parking space. I'm sure something would happen pretty fast once the car was sitting out in the middle of the street! LOL
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Tim...I enjoyed our chat on Thursday evening and looking forward to seeing your 1957 Series 62 Coupe on display sometime soon. As '57s were in short supply, your car would have been especially welcome at this year's GN.

Best of luck with your car.

-Eric.

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

76eldo

I didn't hear anything about this while I was there.  I am amazed that the car was not towed away.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#27
Quote from: Matt Harwood on August 05, 2017, 05:12:19 PM
This is important. I brought my '29 to the show this year. We were staying at the Westin, so it was a mile or so away. We arrived Tuesday, so I tried to take the '29 over Wednesday morning. Ooops, there's a car in my spot. No big deal. Take the car back to the Westin and park it back in the garage. Thursday, same thing, same car parked in my spot. Dang. No worries. Friday, getting close to show day. Waited until late in the day Friday to take the car over, and my friend is still parked in my spot (spot #3, by the way). I pull in anyway and talk to show officials and there's nothing they can do. They tell me to either A) park him in and let him deal with it later, which seemed like a jerk move sure to get my car damaged, or B) park in spot #2. I express concerns about taking spot #2, as the occupant of that space will surely show up and be unhappy and I, of course, will then look like the jerk. "No problem," the organizers tell me. "We'll just tell the guy in space #2 to park in your space when he gets here." Great, sounds easy.

6:55 this morning, my phone rings. It is the occupant of space #2 demanding that I come move my car immediately, if not sooner. He gives me 30 minutes to get there and then he's going to push my car out of the way. I'm not even out of bed yet, but I do move quickly to get over there. I arrive and move my car, but there are a lot of unkind words exchanged and NO show organizers to come explain the situation to the now very pissed off occupant of spot #2. Now that guy could probably have saved us all a lot of hassles and just parked in my space, but he wasn't interested in that. He wanted his spot. He was right, so I couldn't argue with him, so I moved my car. Shortly thereafter, my family arrived with a sick kid in tow and we left and didn't come back. I was too angry to stay and skipped the entire show--which is why we came to DC in the first place. What a waste. I got thrown under the bus by management and a selfish jerk who didn't care where he parked, and to a lesser degree by a fellow club member and show attendee who was unwilling to be a little flexible.

So if you own this black CTS-V, you owe several people an apology. Thanks for screwing up everyone's weekend. I can't say enough unkind things about you.

Matt...sorry to hear of this unfortunate incident - however - there are any number of exigent circumstances necessitating changes without notice and under such conditions, the organizers have the final word. Period. 

Since you had received official authorization to park in the alternate space, you should have referred the originally-designated occupant to the show organizers for them to deal with as they had instructed you.

Of course, this does not excuse the situation with the CTS-V owner. Unfortunately precious time was lost by not acting immediately once it was known there was a problem - for which two whole days should have been ample to have dealt with the issue.

In any case, I do not concur at all with your assessment of the event organizers having "thrown you under the bus".  Do to your own inaction, the organizers had less time to deal with the situation thus placing them in an increasingly difficult position as show day approached. Unable to correct the situation by show day and for reasons difficult to comprehend, you declined to take advantage a perfectly acceptable alternative that was offered to you.

The responsibilities of organizing, registering, judging, tabulating, catering, parking, securing and accommodating hundreds of cars and their owners for a Grand National is a mind-numbingly awesome and thankless task.

Given everything involved in the running of a Grand National event, CLC management, staff & show volunteers have better things to do than having to placate those who refuse to help themselves - particularly when it involves something so trivial as a reassigned parking space.

And if the other party couldn't deal with that, that's their problem. Not yours and certainly not the CLC's.

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Matt Harwood

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on August 06, 2017, 06:44:29 PM
Matt...sorry to hear of this unfortunate incident - however - there are any number of exigent circumstances necessitating changes without notice and under such conditions, the organizers have the final word. Period. 

Since you had received official authorization to park in the alternate space, you should have referred the originally-designated occupant to the show organizers for them to deal with as they had instructed you.

I did. Repeatedly. He didn't care. He wanted space #2, which was on his placard. He's not wrong. He was not particularly interested in being helpful, but he felt he was being wronged just as I was. He was a victim as much as anyone. I told him to talk to the organizers who gave me permission to park in his spot, but I don't know if he did (I was a mile away at a different hotel and doing most of this by phone). He gave me the impression that there was a lot of commotion there and that he and some friends were going to push my car out of the way "about 60 feet" if I couldn't get there in time. So I left my sick kid, got on the shuttle, and ran over there as quickly as I could.

QuoteOf course, this does not excuse the situation with the CTS-V owner. Unfortunately precious time was lost by not acting immediately once it was known there was a problem - for which two whole days should have been ample to have dealt with the issue.

True. When I arrived and found my spot occupied--twice--I mentioned it to three separate members of the event staff (guys in golf carts). They said they would try to find out who it was. Since we still had a few days until the show, I opted not to make an issue of it and simply parked my car at my hotel. I wasn't interested in making trouble, I figured they'd solve it. At least they'd leave a note on the car, right?

QuoteIn any case, I do not concur at all with your assessment of the event organizers having "thrown you under the bus".  Do to your own inaction, the organizers had less time to deal with the situation thus placing them in an increasingly difficult position as show day approached. Unable to correct the situation by show day and for reasons difficult to comprehend, you declined to take advantage a perfectly acceptable alternative that was offered to you.

What inaction? What perfectly acceptable alternative? I cooperated. I was friendly. I didn't argue. I pointed out the problem, both with the CTS and with me being in someone else's space.  On Friday when time was short, I asked them to figure out a solution. The solutions presented were either "Park in front of the CTS and deal with that guy when he comes out," or "Park in slot #2." I opted not to provoke an incident by blocking the CTS--trying to out-jerk a jerk never works. Besides, I'd be at another hotel a mile away. What if he comes out in the middle of the night, wants to leave, and gets angry? What happens to my fragile 88-year-old car? Do I get an angry phone call demanding that I come move my car? Does it get towed? Vandalized? Suddenly I look like the bad guy by doing this.

So I opted for choice B, park in slot #2. The fellow in the golf cart assured me he would be there early Saturday morning and he would simply tell the owner of slot #2 to park in my slot (#3). If the CTS was still there, then they would make other arrangements. I did mention--several times--that by parking in slot #2, I would become the problem/jerk/a-hole if nobody came to explain the situation in the morning. You can see that this is exactly what happened.

I have to ask you, Eric, if you received a call at 7AM telling you that you better move your car or else someone was going to break in and push it out of the way how would you feel? How would you feel if the organizers of the event promised you that they'd handle the situation, and when the situation arose, they were nowhere to be found? The rightful owner of slot #2 was there for at least a half hour with his car out of place in the driveway and trying to get my car out of his way. Why did nobody assist him and explain the situation? At least three organizers knew of the situation. Instead, he was just as confused as anyone and that made him angry. I'm sure he felt as wronged as I do. I want to be angry at him for how he handled it, but he didn't do anything wrong, either.

QuoteThe responsibilities of organizing, registering, judging, tabulating, catering, parking, securing and accommodating hundreds of cars and their owners for a Grand National is a mind-numbingly awesome and thankless task.

Given everything involved in the running of a Grand National event, CLC management, staff & show volunteers have better things to do than having to placate those who refuse to help themselves - particularly when it involves something so trivial as a reassigned parking space.

I certainly appreciate the challenges of putting on big car shows--my wife manages a major show here in Cleveland that attracts 450 cars each year. I get it. But how, exactly, should I have "helped myself?" I did what they told me to do, I didn't start a fight, and while the owner of slot #2 was unpleasant and uncooperative, he wasn't obligated to be. He was wronged, too. If they had told me to park my car way over on the far end where there were open spots, I would have happily done that--I don't care where I park and I wasn't having my car judged. I wouldn't have cared a bit.

But the ultimate result is that I looked like the bad guy, I took the brunt of the blame, and my time at the show was ruined. I paid to be there like everyone else, but I was dragged out of bed by the threat of my car being pushed by an angry mob. All I did was follow instructions and do what the event organizers told me to do. All THEY had to do was show up and tell the owner of slot #2 to park in slot #3, which the CTS had vacated by Saturday morning.

I'm open to hearing your suggestions as to what I should have done differently. I cooperated, I didn't start a fight, I didn't provoke the CTS owner by blocking him in, and I followed instructions. But by 8:30 Saturday morning, I wanted nothing to do with the CLC or this show and left. At no point did any show official come to help resolve the issue--I was there for about an hour and not one organizer came to see what the commotion was. We were right by the entrance, there was some shouting, but nobody stepped forward to explain to the owner of slot #2 that everything was cool. Someone dropped the ball, but again, it wasn't me.

Quote
And if the other party couldn't deal with that, that's their problem. Not yours and certainly not the CLC's.

As I told the owner of slot #2, there are a lot of jerks involved here, but I'm not one of them. Sorry you think I am.
Matt Harwood
Cleveland, OH
1929 Cadillac 341B sedan
1941 Cadillac 60S
2010 CTS4 3.6 Performance Wagon

David Greenburg

Unfortunately, by the time I came back down, the CTS was gone, so I didn't get to leave a note or get any further information.
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

Carl Fielding

Matt , I am terribly sorry this happened to you. You are a consummate gentleman , and , as I have said several times , "Matt Harwood for president!". But I know you will have far more rewarding things to do in 3 1/2 years. Now in case of future similar situations do this. Take a Grant or a Franklin out of your wallet and tear it in half. Give one piece of it to someone in a position to help you. Tell him (or her) , the other half is theirs upon favorable resolution. Permanent and prompt resolution.

And here is a tip for you , dear new member Tim : For fence sitting you , next time you need an extra favor from CLC , break out that checkbook and write a nice big fat contribution to the CLC Museum. Please realize that many of the people working hard for all of us grateful members at a G.N. , are verging on , if not FULLY suffering from , battle fatigue. HEY ! I get battle fatigue just attending ! I think you were extended a courtesy. I am glad to see that you are evolving towards that realization. I am sure you will treasure your membership and the friends you are making here. Welcome , Tim ! I hope to meet you some day !

If any of you think I am just blowing smoke , or are aghast at the thought of suborning those in charge , go live in Latin America for a few years as I have , it becomes routine. Oh , and please be advised that it is very unwise to use THIS technique in Costa Rica , or Chile. A far more sophisticated manipulative stance is required. However para hacer esto , hay que  hablar Espanol casi como si fuera tu idioma propia. Me entiendes ? Ask me sometime to explain this subtle subterfuge. It may even get you out of a speeding ticket in Chile , AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS AFFAIR , SO DO NOT SPEED IN CHILE. I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO PUT  MY MANIPULATION TO A SUCCESSFUL TEST , BUT FIGURE IT HAD A CERTAIN DEGREE OF BEGINNERS LUCK ASSOCIATED WITH IT'S OUTCOME !  DO  NOT  SPEED  IN  CHILE !!!!  Enough. I do tend to drift , but driving advice is appropriate . And this is serious. Your entire trip to Chile can become a nightmare if you have to deal with a speeding ticket. Worse than a snafu at a CLC G.N. Poor Matt. If it had had been me sucked into that sordid whirlpool , you would have been treated to the spectacle of Cadillac Carl's conversion to "Jerkus Maximus".   - Cadillac Carl

Glen

I seem to remember in previous GNs this has happened before.  The offending parker was a hotel guest that was not part of the Cadillac LaSalle club and had no idea his car was a problem.  Usually there are cars parked there before the club people start setting up for the show. 
Since the hotel has no record of who owns what car they have no way to contact the owner to move it.  They probably would not want to have the car towed because of the possibility of damage the hotel would be responsible. 
Anybody pushing a car out of the stall would also be liable for any damage.  A guy at work did that when someone parked in his reserved stall.  He had to pay for an inspection for possible transmission damage and repair of the back bumper. 
Matt, I think you did the right thing, you took the high road.  Sorry it had to happen.   
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#32
Quote from: Matt Harwood on August 06, 2017, 09:49:01 PM
I did. Repeatedly. He didn't care. He wanted space #2, which was on his placard. He's not wrong. He was not particularly interested in being helpful, but he felt he was being wronged just as I was. He was a victim as much as anyone.

I beg to differ. When someone refuses to cooperate after officially being informed that his space must be reassigned for whatever reason - he is wrong.

A placard is not a deed; the man doesn't "own" anything. He was assigned a space. There could be any number of reasons why "his" space could not be used by him: A water main break, lightning... or...... an idiot with a CTS-V being parked incorrectly to begin with.

There are a hell of a lot things worse than having to have a space reassigned - regardless of what the reason(s) may be. How would you like having original paint damaged in transit by a highly recommended transporter through no fault of your own. It happened to me.  I would trade places with you (or the original space holder) in a heartbeat.

In any case, I would have directed original space holder to the proper channels and let them sort it out one way or another.  There were plenty of empty spaces all over the parking lot. No reason a solution could not have been found. If the other party chooses to be unreasonable, that's their problem. 

**In your original narrative, you made no mention of having notified the organizers of the CTS occupying your space.

Quote from: Matt Harwood on August 06, 2017, 09:49:01 PM
As I told the owner of slot #2, there are a lot of jerks involved here, but I'm not one of them. Sorry you think I am.

Not at all. I just think you could have handled the situation better to your advantage.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.  ;)
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

7gen

If a guy blows a fuse over a parking space, can you imagine what a peach he must be when something REALLY bad happens?

He's a enough of a burden to himself, Matt. Don't let him be a burden to you.


Jason Edge

#34
Quote from: Matt Harwood on August 05, 2017, 05:12:19 PM
This is important. I brought my '29 to the show this year. We were staying at the Westin, so it was a mile or so away. We arrived Tuesday, so I tried to take the '29 over Wednesday morning. Ooops, there's a car in my spot. No big deal. Take the car back to the Westin and park it back in the garage. Thursday, same thing, same car parked in my spot. Dang. No worries. Friday, getting close to show day. Waited until late in the day Friday to take the car over, and my friend is still parked in my spot (spot #3, by the way). I pull in anyway and talk to show officials and there's nothing they can do. They tell me to either A) park him in and let him deal with it later, which seemed like a jerk move sure to get my car damaged, or B) park in spot #2. I express concerns about taking spot #2, as the occupant of that space will surely show up and be unhappy and I, of course, will then look like the jerk. "No problem," the organizers tell me. "We'll just tell the guy in space #2 to park in your space when he gets here." Great, sounds easy.

6:55 this morning, my phone rings. It is the occupant of space #2 demanding that I come move my car immediately, if not sooner. He gives me 30 minutes to get there and then he's going to push my car out of the way. I'm not even out of bed yet, but I do move quickly to get over there. I arrive and move my car, but there are a lot of unkind words exchanged and NO show organizers to come explain the situation to the now very pissed off occupant of spot #2. Now that guy could probably have saved us all a lot of hassles and just parked in my space, but he wasn't interested in that. He wanted his spot. He was right, so I couldn't argue with him, so I moved my car. Shortly thereafter, my family arrived with a sick kid in tow and we left and didn't come back. I was too angry to stay and skipped the entire show--which is why we came to DC in the first place. What a waste. I got thrown under the bus by management and a selfish jerk who didn't care where he parked, and to a lesser degree by a fellow club member and show attendee who was unwilling to be a little flexible.

So if you own this black CTS-V, you owe several people an apology. Thanks for screwing up everyone's weekend. I can't say enough unkind things about you.
In no way, shape or form should Matt have ever had to deal with either the CTS-V parked in his assigned parking spot #3, or the owner of car assigned parking spot #2.  Staff on hand should have handled this matter completely... period!
- It was their responsibility to locate the owner of the CTS-V. If owner could not have been located within a reasonable amount of time, the car should have been towed to another location on the Hotel Property, and information given to the Front Desk for owner when they start looking for their car. 
- If staff deemed Matt should park in spot #2, it is staff's responsibility to notify owner.... not Matt! Until it was confirmed person in spot #2  will agreeably move, Matt should NEVER have been told to park in spot #2. If owner of spot #2 could not have been found in a reasonable amount of time, another spot should have been negotiated.
I completely and fully understand why Matt and owner of spot #2 were upset. I was not at this GN but saw open spots all over the field from pictures posted Saturday and assume there were cancellations and no shows. Regardless, IT IS NOT MATT'S Responsibility.
This would be like going to a concert and finding someone in your seat, and the attendants telling you that you need to tell the person in your seat to move somewhere else. That is not your responsibility
I understand things come up and you have to adjust parking due to all sorts of unforeseen circumstances, but the logistics of this should not fall to the CLC member that just wants to show up, and park and show their car in their assigned parking spot.  Personally, I think refunds and apologies are due to both Matt and person in parking spot #2. 
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: Jason Edge on August 07, 2017, 10:25:15 AMRegardless, IT IS NOT MATT'S Responsibility.
This would be like going to a concert and finding someone in your seat, and the attendants telling you that you need to tell the person in your seat to move somewhere else. That is not your responsibility.

They did not ask him to do that.

Quote from: Jason Edge on August 07, 2017, 10:25:15 AMPersonally, I think refunds and apologies are due to both Matt and person in parking spot #2.

Why? Number 2 got what he wanted.

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Jason Edge

Art. Did you not read my reply? I indicated things come up that necessitate moves, but that was not Matt's responsibility.
Eric. Pt 1: Did you read the 2 options he was given? Am I missing something? Pt 2. So owner in spot #2 was not burdened by this mishandling by parking staff. Did he not have to get someone out of his assigned spot when he was ready to set up and get ready to prepare and show his car? And was this burden not due to one of the 2 options given to Matt?
Instead of working to find a solution for Matt, the parking staff threw it back to Matt to try and figure it out AND involve a 3rd party! It is hard to come up with quick decisions on the spot, but telling Matt to park in someone else' spot, before, that person agreed through communication by staff (not Matt), was a major mistake. 
I will also say that getting defensive about the mistake and making it sound like Matt or person in #2 were in any way to blame, sheds a bad light to anyone that might be planning on attending a future GN. Mistakes happen ... we are all human, but admit it when it happens.
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

Dan LeBlanc

We can discuss the could've, should've, would'ves until the cows come home. Yes it happened. Yes it was unfortunate. I'm sure the show organizers feel awful about it. I can see the committee doing a post-mortem on this and make suggestions on how to avoid this in the future.  The show organizers have worked tirelessly for the last two years and it's impossible to dot all the I's and cross all the It's. Perhaps we should just leave it at that.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car