R12 replacement gas.

[Jeepers Creepers]

Yesterday, i had the Air Cond gassed up on the 64 Fleetwood.

I was told, steer clear of the R134 and use R437A, as it is a direct replacement for those who can't source R12. We had 6.5 degrees coming out of the vents, so I was pretty happy and the stuff certainly works well.

This a copy and paste on the product if anyone has any interest. IE: Countries like Australia where R12 is banned. The copy and paste is from Sweden, as I was chasing info for a friend from Sweden. Each country will have its own sources.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiI1enS4rLWAhVCerwKHfrBBl4QFghRMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aga.se%2Fen%2Fproducts_ren%2Frefrigerants%2Fhfc_gases%2Fr437a%2Findex.html&usg=AFQjCNHv8Sbh4uEaHBU9CdsSipu7q0haDA

[2manycars]

Good information, Kevin. Thank you for posting it!

Love your car too.

[cadman56]

1.  Were you able to document the suction and discharge pressures after using the R437 gas>
2.  What oil was used?
3.  Anyone out there using this gas in a 56?
Thanks

[Jeepers Creepers]

Larry, I'll need to get that info off my Air Cond guy and I should be able to swing by his place tomorrow.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

6.5 degrees Centigrade I presume!      

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Another case where a little information can be dangerous. R-437a was and is intended for replacing R-12 in Low and Medium temperature stationary refrigeration systems. Air conditioning is considered HIGH temperature, and 437a with a critical temperature of 96 degrees C (205 degrees F) means that in climates where the temperature is over 90 degrees and the car's radiator is at 210 degrees, it won't condense.
For Cadillac ATC systems with a evaporator pressure controller attempting to maintain 28-32 psig, the system with 437a will be at just about 25 degrees F.  Result, in any place other than the Sahara desert, the coil will ice solid almost immediately.
With R-134a as a major component this refrigerant will soon become prohibited in the EU and other country's which have begun an R-134a ban for automotive use.
Refrigerant characteristics would require a change of expansion valve operating characteristics, and refrigerant charge must be determined by using the superheat method.
Could go on for quite a bit but at the risk of wearing out my keyboard I will stop. 
R-437a is a Good refrigerant when used as intended and used by professional refrigeration techs.
Greg Surfas

[Jeepers Creepers]

Quote....."R-437a is a Good refrigerant when used as intended and used by professional refrigeration techs"

It was done by a professional refrigeration tech and in the literature I have, it does say for Automotive Air Conditioning Systems.

Oh well, time will tell. 

[Dan LeBlanc]

After reading your post, I did a little digging on R437a.  It is not approved for automotive use in the United States.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Kevin,
Typically, the car's radiator running at say 200 degrees F will "radiate" heat in all directions as well as by convection due to the air flow, especially at low speeds or at idle.  This will in turn heat up the condenser, typically by 10-15 degrees F.  That in return effectively results in a condensing temperature (at 100 degrees F outside temperature) of something like 150-160 degrees F.  As a(ny) refrigerant nears its critical temperature the work required to compress it goes up thus effectively reducing the capacity of the compressor and in turn the system.
Expansion valves are designed specifically for the refrigerant intended and have a precise orifice to limit flow to the capacity desired.  They control refrigerant flow by measuring the temperature of the suction line via the thermal bulb and comparing it to the actual suction pressure.  The desired equilibrium point being suction flow to the compressor at a specific super heat.  The thermal properties of this refrigerant are vastly different to those of R-12.

You are fortunate in two respects.  First of all I believe you might have to travel quite a ways to find much traffic, and secondly design temperatures in your neck of the woods rarely approach 90 degrees F.
Try running the refrigerant and let us know how it works for you.
Greg Surfas

[Jeepers Creepers]

Shall do...

Understand, if I could use R12 here in Oz, that's what we would have put in the system. I've had it explained to me why R437A will work here in Oz, we are approved for use in Automotive Systems. (I had the system on yesterday, it does appear to be going well at this stage)

I'm no A.C. tech, that's for sure, so I've had to rely on other peoples knowledge on this one. (I'm good at a couple of things, A.C. isn't one of them)

Over at the 63/64 chapter, i'm now the nominated Guinea Pig to see how the system goes on R437A.

The whole idea of this thread was to give those with no access to R12 an option they might not have been aware of, so I'll report back here as well and give you results.
Cheers, Kev

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Kevin,
You might find out if you can legally use R-414b.  It IS a drop in for 12 and I have been using it successfully here in Southern Texas (hot/humid) for over 15 years.  It is manufactured by ICOR and is sold under the name of "Hot Shot" (not Hot Shot-2).
Greg Surfas

[V63]

using 'ENVIROSAFE' for years. Sold 50lb jug of R12 even. They advertise in hemming. It's a larger molecule that is leak resistant and no oil conversions.

Some notable recents:

87 RR spur, 20f at vent

*68 Cadillac 32 at vent

*82 Porsche -20 at vent! Below zero, (we switched off thermal protection)

1997 Lincoln 20 degrees at vent.

Never had 'Frozen' evap. However, used generally in desert climate.

*modern cross flow condenser modify too.

[cadman56]

Gentlemen,
I am going to need refrigerant for my 56 Eldorado.  the system is all original except i have had the filter/drier refreshed.  I do not have any R12.
My biggest concern is protecting the compressor from damage.  It does get hot in Kansas and humid in Wichita.  Will the 414b work?  I am reticent to use 134a because it operates at higher temperatures, so I am told.
I have considered Freeze 12 but haven't moved on that yet.
Any suggestions/advise is most welcome. 
Thanks, Larry

[savemy67]

Hello all,

Following up on Greg's post, ICOR's website specifically states that HOT SHOT 2 (two) is not suitable for automotive air conditioning systems, so be sure to look for HOT SHOT.  Unfortunately, ICOR's website also states that HOT SHOT is being phased out, and they are increasing the price during the phase out period (could not find when this period ends - might have to check EPA website).

V63 - I looked at Envirosafe's website and only saw R134a listed under refirgerants.  Have your older vehicles been converted to 134a?  Does Envirosafe make an R12 substitute that is not being phased out?

Christopher Winter

[Dan LeBlanc]

Gentlemen,
I am going to need refrigerant for my 56 Eldorado.  the system is all original except i have had the filter/drier refreshed.  I do not have any R12.
My biggest concern is protecting the compressor from damage.  It does get hot in Kansas and humid in Wichita.  Will the 414b work?  I am reticent to use 134a because it operates at higher temperatures, so I am told.
I have considered Freeze 12 but haven't moved on that yet.
Any suggestions/advise is most welcome. 
Thanks, Larry

DON'T DO FREEZE 12!  I'm fairly confident it trashed my compressor (AC Delco rebuilt) and has led to the failure of my POA valve. I've heard horror stories about it besides mine. I now have to pull everything apart this winter, flush everything and replace all the trashed items. It was put in by a shop the previous owner hired.

I'll be recharging with R12 I sourced on eBay.

Do yourself a huge favour and go with R12

[V63]

The problem is in the regulation of these products. It's not that they do not work. In most of these products they are highly effective and legal anywhere else in the world.

One thing is found to work...then it's illegal, then another is found to work, and another. Now R22 (i.e.: residential AC) is being phased out.

Many of the gasous hydrocarbons are ideal refrigerants, but illegal because they are flammable. The quantity is that of 16oz? Yet have 15 gallons of gasoline mixed with alcohol and high FI pressures, that's not a problem.

Freon was developed mainly because it's not flammable ...but burns holes in the ozone instead.

Pick up a print issue of Hemmings and look for ENVIROSAFE ad towards the front of the classifieds...under restoration products maybe.

I can't help but be cynical of the motives in all this bait and switch refrigerant game.

[V63]

I've had used freeze 12 for years too...I was very pleased with it too. Hard to believe It's a r134 blend I believe?

The single greatest improvement in auto AC in 50 years is the modern cross flow condensers developed to improve efficiency of R134.

I have a DTS with r134 system and it's WONDERFUL! Freeze you out in 110f weather.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

When a refrigeration system is designed, the first selection is the refrigerant to be used. THEN all the components compatible with that refrigerant, designed to produce the required cooling effect (capacity) are chosen.
ANYTHING including water can be a good refrigerant IF the components are chosen correctly.
Systems designed for R-134a do work just as well as those designed for R-12.  The problem comes when you try and retrofit any refrigeration into a system designed for an other one.
One of the intangibles is that R-134a was integrated into the automotive industry just about the same time cars were severely downsized, so the required capacity was reduced, thus the components available for R-134a generally tend to be of lesser capacity (10 cubic inches vs 12.6 for the A-6 compressor).  Newer cars are of course substantially better insulated, again reducing the required capacity.
Greg Surfas

[V63]

When manufacturers began producing r134 designed systems...the performance was horrific. Everyone was complaining...especially in warm climates. The way things are going...water will be the refrigerant that will finally be approved, they just need to figure out how to patent H2O.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

It already has a refrigerant number: R-718.  Currenty the big EU push is for CO2 which is already patented by DB.  Refrigerant is very cheap. Equipment is ultra complex anmd expensive.  Stick around it will get better different.
Greg Surfas