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911 41 Water Pump failure - stuck in Williams

Started by Eric Voigt, October 15, 2017, 08:55:04 PM

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Eric Voigt

Anyone in Williams area with a 41 series water pump?  This has been ugly,  first, the water pump in the car (rebuilt) the impeller fell off the shaft (wasn't pressed on correctly) and my back up in yesterday (Kanter rebuild) and seals let go and leak like the Titanic.

Any and all help is appreciated.  I am also looking for a shop in the area to press the impeller back on.

Eric
951-315-1168
Eric Voigt

1941 Cad 60 Special
1947 Cad 7533 Derham Limo
1963 Avanti Supercharged R2
1966 Olds Toronado, Deluxe
1969 Dodge Charger
1971 Olds 442 Conv

Bobby B

Quote from: Eric Voigt on October 15, 2017, 08:55:04 PM
Anyone in Williams area with a 41 series water pump?  This has been ugly,  first, the water pump in the car (rebuilt) the impeller fell off the shaft (wasn't pressed on correctly) and my back up in yesterday (Kanter rebuild) and seals let go and leak like the Titanic.

Any and all help is appreciated.  I am also looking for a shop in the area to press the impeller back on.

Eric
951-315-1168

Eric,
  Those impellers need to be tack welded on. It was most likely pressed on correctly. You're not the first person to experience this. I chased an overheating problem until I found the same thing you did. When you put a new one on, have them tack it in place as close to the body as it will allow without scraping. You'll get great flow, less air pockets. Good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                                            Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Steve Passmore

I would have thought any Garage would have the necessary press and welding equipment?
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

The Tassie Devil(le)

Ah ha Steve.   You seem to forget that American Garages are a lot different to British Garages.

American ones only have self-service for petrol, whereas I can imagine the British ones are like ours down here with workshops attached.

I didn't see much in the way of repair shops when I travelled through Williams in 2002.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Steve Passmore

Ah, but must be back street garages somewhere Bruce. Who's gonna carry out normal repairs and service for those that don't do themselves?  or don't they bother? LOL
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Eric Voigt

With today dead for me, I took a hard look at the pump with the impeller off and found the Stainless shaft is a couple thous under size to and impeller.  The impeller was (is) brass and has held to the shaft with loctite - the problem. The second pump didn't last 150 miles (Kanter rebuild).

Ordered a replacement pump and will be delivered tomorrow and I will install it on Wednesday.

Eric
Eric Voigt

1941 Cad 60 Special
1947 Cad 7533 Derham Limo
1963 Avanti Supercharged R2
1966 Olds Toronado, Deluxe
1969 Dodge Charger
1971 Olds 442 Conv

Bobby B

Quote from: Eric Voigt on October 16, 2017, 05:41:24 PM
With today dead for me, I took a hard look at the pump with the impeller off and found the Stainless shaft is a couple thous under size to and impeller.  The impeller was (is) brass and has held to the shaft with loctite - the problem. The second pump didn't last 150 miles (Kanter rebuild).

Ordered a replacement pump and will be delivered tomorrow and I will install it on Wednesday.

Eric

Once again....Tack the Impeller to the Shaft  ;)
                                               Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

virgil

Hi Eric.  If the impellor is brass or bronze you won't be able to tack it with a welder.   Also, if tack welding on a shaft supported by ball bearings be sure your ground clamp is on the shaft itself or you will "arc" the bearing and it will fail prematurely.

gary griffin

Possibly with different metals brazing it would be better?  No arc and no dissimilar metal issues with brazing instead of arc welding.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Steve Passmore

Problem with that could be Gary, the time taken to get the metal up to temperature. Could that destroy the seals??
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

gary griffin

Dissimilar metals always post problems.  I wonder if Heli arc would be a better choice. We used in on mild steel to Brass as I recall. Also silver solder but again heating the whole thing up too.  I wonder if anybody has considered drilling and tapping small machine screws in the transition between ferrous and non ferrous?
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

m-mman

I am thinking that drilling a hole and inserting a roll (compression) pin would certainly be better than lock tite. . .
1929 341B Town Sedan
1971 Miller-Meteor Lifeliner ambulance
Other non-Cadillac cars
Near Los Angeles, California

CLC #29634

Bobby B

Why does everybody find that putting a "Tack" weld on to hold the shaft so difficult? ???  You don't have to weld it like a Madman. Just a Tack. Blip...Done.  Peace of Mind, End of Story......
               Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Steve Passmore

Agreed normally Bobby but Eric said the impeller is Brass! That just spits off weld doesn't it?
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Gene Beaird

Dimple the end of the shaft right up next to the impeller with a center punch.  I'd probably do two, or four dimples.  I probably wouldn't try to dimple the impeller, as the dimpling could open the hole in the impeller where it presses onto the shaft allowing it to spin/fall off. 

Gene Beaird,
1968 Calais
1979 Seville
Pearland, Texas
CLC Member No. 29873

gary griffin

Bobby, Your method has merits but you are not actually welding the dissimilar metals, just deforming them to make them difficult to separate. In my field of experience "welding" means mixing the metals together. Your method must work as would roll pins as suggested and possibly screws in the middle of the dissimilar metals.  More than one way to skin a cat as they say. My initial trade was pipefitter/welder and we would not call your tack a weld, although it has merit. Many of the people reading this have no welding equipment or experience either.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Eric Voigt

Thanks to all.  Got the new pump installed Wednesday and we are back on the road and now in Sedona.

What I did notice, is the new pump has the brass impeller is pinned to the shaft using roll pin and locked in place.  I have no idea who Ed is using to upgrade the pumps as this is first class.   Sealed bearing, never lube and on.

Peace of mind. Car ran flawless from Williams to here, never above 150.

Eric Voigt

1941 Cad 60 Special
1947 Cad 7533 Derham Limo
1963 Avanti Supercharged R2
1966 Olds Toronado, Deluxe
1969 Dodge Charger
1971 Olds 442 Conv

camelot

might want to look into loctite 680.  Its a retaining compound for gears and bearings.
1939 Cadillac 7519
1940 Lasalle 5019
1962 Cadillac 6339 4w

autoluke

After rebuilding my pump, I suddenly notice a grinding sound.

I now have an idea as to the problem.

Thanks to all for the info.
Phil Lukens

Bobby B

Quote from: Eric Voigt on October 20, 2017, 04:50:29 PM
What I did notice, is the new pump has the brass impeller is pinned to the shaft using roll pin and locked in place. 

I wonder why........ ::)
                           Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH