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Electrical Problem 1939 Lasalle Won't Start

Started by 39LaSalleDriver, December 14, 2017, 01:12:08 PM

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39LaSalleDriver

Hello all, first post here. Just bought a 39 Lasalle sedan this week (my first antique car) and it has been a bit trying so far. It ran fine from the get go...for the first few hours. Went to take it for a spin around the neighborhood (don't want to trust it much further until I know what it is or isn't capable of) the first night. Driving along, the headlights faded and car coasted to a stop. Got it to a safe parking spot to sit overnight so I could look it over in daylight.

Next morning, brought jumper cables, gasoline, etc., etc. to see what was going on. After about two hours of wrangling, trying to jump start (clamped to starter not battery), adding gas and so forth, I discovered a terminal boot had slipped off one of the posts on the electric fuel pump previous owner had installed.  >:(

Reattached, a squirt of starting fluid, and it fired right up and I took it home. Three or so hours later, go out to take a ride...dead, dead, dead. Getting dark and cold, figure I'll deal with it in the morning. Next morning, try to jump start again...nothing. No clicks, no growl, nothing.

Remove battery, attach to a charger, let it charge for several hours, put it back in...nothing. Lower quality battery of unknown age and condition, so I go to parts store and pick up a brand new Optima. Drop it in, and now I get the click and grumble that it at least "wants" to start, but the starter doesn't seem to be responding.

Help! Anyone have any advice? Electrical is not my strong suit at all. I'm wondering if now the starting solenoid has gone bad, or have I potentially fried it and/or the starter when trying to jump start it? Something else?

Jon Isaacson
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

tripwire

Jon,
When you say you get a click and a grumble does that mean the engine is turning over at least a little bit?  The click should indicate the solenoid is working, engaging the drive with the flywheel.  If the grumble is the engine turning over, even at a slow pace could be an indicator of a weak starter or other concerns. 
A common fault area with these 6 volt cars is lack of good grounds in the circuit, corroded, bad or undersized cables.  Do you have a voltmeter to put on the starting circuit to test the voltage drop in the circuit? 
If you search this forum you'll find plenty of postings where folks are trying to diagnose similar problems.
Good luck,

Wes in VT
Driving now:
2013 CTS4 Performance Coupe
1940 LaSalle 5229 C4D

A few I used to drive:
1976 Cadillac Ambulance
1969 Cadillac Hearse, Superior Body
1966 Buick Wildcat Hearse
1957 Ford Thunderbird x 3, 1 E code, 2 D code
1956 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 Sedan
1949 Mercury Convertible
1949 Mercury Coupe, Mild Custom
1936 Buick Special Sedan

39LaSalleDriver

Thanks for the response.

Quote from: tripwire on December 14, 2017, 01:43:15 PM
When you say you get a click and a grumble does that mean the engine is turning over at least a little bit?

No. I think the grumble I reference may be the fuel pump kicking in, but not having experience with those I don't really know. I do know for fact it is not getting to the point in the process of trying to turn the engine over. I insert key, turn it on and some sort of growl/grumble kicks in which seems to indicate "something" is powering up (that's why I suspect it is the fuel pump). Hit the starter button and nothing. I turn the key off in fairly quick order so as to not drain the battery.

Quote from: tripwire on December 14, 2017, 01:43:15 PM
The click should indicate the solenoid is working

I'd have to check again (won't be able to until tomorrow), but I don't perceive any sort of click indicating that it's trying to do that.

Quote from: tripwire on December 14, 2017, 01:43:15 PM
Do you have a voltmeter to put on the starting circuit to test the voltage drop in the circuit? 

I do, but not sure how to go about that just yet, like I say, I'm not the most electrically inclined, but will search around in here to see about the procedure.

My biggest fear is that when trying to jump start it, we may have gotten the wires crossed and fried something in the ignition system. Is that even possible? Was trying to be careful, what with the positive ground and all, but mistakes do happen. I'm pretty sure we hooked the black cable to the starter post, and touched the red cable to the frame...but I wouldn't want to swear to it in a court of law. Even if we did the opposite, it was only to touch it to the frame, not clamped on for more than a second or two.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

tturley

Welcome Jon
Any pics of your car?
I recently restored a 1940 LaSalle and it also had starting issues when I got it but after some cable replacement, adding of grounds and cleaning all connections it is very dependebale
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

ebuliavac

Your first issue sounds like the generator was going out, so your car ran on the battery for awhile until enough current wasn't available.  This happened to me on an '83 Buick with a 307 about a mile from home.  I pulled over and walked home, and later replaced the alternator and all was well. 

You can see the solenoid operating when someone presses the starter button.  If you are by yourself, as I was recently with a bad starter, you can take a movie with your cell phone or a digital camera.  If you are getting enough current from your battery, and the starter is not turning but the solenoid clicks, then you might suspect a bad starter, which, of course, is not why your car coasted to a stop. 

I would be looking at both the starter and the generator, assuming you've got the battery situation handled.  Also, just an FWI, heavy ground cables really help with 6V systems in getting the current through.

In addition to the electric fuel pump, do you have a mechanical pump, and a switch to turn the electric pump off?

It is probably not catastrophic.  Keep us posted!

Ed Buliavac
1940 6227C
1996 Fleetwood Brougham

jamesmadconductor

When you jumped the vehicle, did you recall that the '39 is a positive ground system? I've made that mistake on a couple of old Brit cars...it wasn't a good time.
Dr. James Keith
1912 Model T Touring
1939 LaSalle series 50 Sedan
1940 LaSalle series 52 Coupe
1949 Chevrolet 3800 Panel Truck
1958 MG-A
1958 Cadillac Series 62
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
2008 Cadillac XLR Alpine White Edition

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#6
If you hear the grumble when you turn the key then it is probably the fuel pump.
As electrical isnt your strong suit then break it down simply.
Does the starter know what you want it to do? You need to know if the starter is trying or not. Turn on the headlights and hit the starter. Do they dim? If not then the starter doesnt know you want it to run--  go down the path to find out why. If they dim then the starter is being told to run so that part of the circuit is ok- go down the path to find out why it wants to run but isn't able to.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

39LaSalleDriver

#7
Today's update:

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, I'm taking them all into heart and trying to track down this gremlin. The only variable I can come up with is that when trying to jump start it, I messed up and fried something. I feel like a dunce about it, but that is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.

New battery is putting out 6.18v - this should be good.

Cables - older and could use a bit of cleaning, maybe eventually replaced. Can't imagine that they worked fine three hours previous and now suddenly fail. Don't really think that would be the problem.

Grumbling - that is indeed the electric fuel pump. Fuel is not the issue here.

Ignition switch - kicks over the electric fuel pump and headlights come on, so I think it's working fine.

Starter - following advice here, propped up phone to shoot video while I was cranking it. Appears to be a new(ish) replacement. No activity there.

Generator - shouldn't even be an issue at this point.

Voltage regulator - don't really think that would be an issue at this point.

Am I missing anything in the chain?

Won't really be able to do anything about it until Monday now, so I will update as new information becomes available. Will follow Jeff's recommendation about hitting the starter while headlights are on and see what that brings.

So far, it looks like I'm just going to have to pull the starter, bench test it and see what's going on and possibly have to take it to a shop and see what they can do.
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

gary griffin


Often these problems are related to the grounds and connections in the cables. You said it started fine when hooking the jumpers directly to the starter.  Cables almost never fail, but the connectors do. Get a proper brush and scraper to clean your cable connections.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Steve Passmore

Hard to determine electrical problems without being there. You may well have fried that solenoid with cross wiring your jumper cables. Problem is, that's not the correct solenoid so hard to determine what you may have done wrong.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

z3skybolt

USNtar,

I am the last one who knows anything but.....when I had starter problems with my 1940 LaSalle I reverted to a technique of my 1960s youth.  I took a hammer and lightly tapped the side of the starter. Waala...it worked for several starts.

In the end it was the starter solenoid.  I guess the tapping affected the solenoid rather than the starter itself.  anyhow I bought a new/rebuilt solenoid from ALLCADS.  $500.00!!! But it worked. No problems since with many starts.

Good luck,

Bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

harry s

Something doesn't look right about the wiring, but as Steve pointed out it is hard to really tell by the picture and not being there.  Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

J. Gomez

I’m not an expert on this year vintage but just curious.

Did the 39-41 starter has a relay on top of the solenoid? I do not see one mounted on this one, not sure if it is required or if it can be bypass?   ???

Was the starter push button wired directly to the solenoid terminal in your case? Assuming that is where the red wire is going to?   ???

If you hear a loud click from the solenoid once you press the starter button that would indicate the solenoid coil is fine.

Assuming the ’39 solenoid is similar to newer styles (mid 195X onward) there is a copper disc inside which connected the battery terminal to the starter terminal when energized to power the starter motor. If nothing happens on the starter motor when the solenoid is energized most likely the trouble is the solenoid.

Not sure how easy would be on the ’39 if you can temporarily short the battery terminal and solenoid coil terminal (red wire ???) to engage the solenoid and see if that makes any different with your issue, and causes the starter to crank.
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

39LaSalleDriver

#13
Thanks for all the advice. I did take another stab at it before leaving for work by taking jumper cables,  attaching the black (negative) to the post on the starter, and touching the red (positive) to the ground strap. The other ends I attached directly to my fresh 6v battery (with key in on position). Nothing.  Will try again after rapping it with a hammer. If that doesn't work I'll remove the starter and see what's going on.

The observation that the wiring looks off is correct. Seems previous owners at some point put a new starter and solenoid in with the new wires and either clipped or disconnected the old wiring and let it hang. I'm seeing other wiring done the same way so I foresee having to go through the electrical system at some point. That will have to wait until I get this current problem fixed. ..then replacement of the brake system. ..and universal joints.  :D
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

tturley

Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

39LaSalleDriver

Today's Update:

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!

Following advice, I was able to get the solenoid and starter to crank while on the car by crossing posts with a screwdriver. This told me that thankfully I hadn't blown either one of those.

Cleaned battery cables. Noticed the nuts on the starter weren't tightened down real good. Why they weren't, I don't know. Tightened those. Still no function out of ignition push button switch (which is an aftermarket replacement that was added at some point). Got a replacement push starter button in case the one on there was bad, as well as some 12 ga. wire to rewire the whole rig if necessary (which it will be at some point).

Followed wiring through starter button to starter. No problems there. Other lead looped back to battery...AHA! Small pigtail from negative post clamp had a yellow crimp connection that had popped loose from the wire leading back to the engine compartment and eventually back to the button starter. Somebody previously hadn't had a good connection in there, so I redid all of that to be solid. Fired right up the way it's supposed to.

Wiring WILL be reworked as time and finances allow. But for now, I'm back on the road! I may not know much about electrical systems, but I'm playing catch up fast  ;D You can bet I won't be caught with my pants down with this situation again. End story is that I got a new, quality battery, and some valuable education about  the electrical and starting system of my Lasalle.

Thanks to everyone for following or helping with my problem. I'm sure I'll have a million more questions in my journey, but hopefully they won't be so "Old Cars 101".
Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

ebuliavac

I am just wondering, how is your ammeter reading?  I wonder why the car broke down initially?  If you ever find out, let us know. 

Glad you are back driving your car.

Ed
1940 6227C
1996 Fleetwood Brougham

39LaSalleDriver

#17
Quote from: ebuliavac on December 19, 2017, 01:47:59 AM
I am just wondering, how is your ammeter reading?  I wonder why the car broke down initially?  If you ever find out, let us know. 

Glad you are back driving your car.

Ed


Essentially, it was a situation of a less than funny comedy of errors. If you reread the narrative, you will see what happened. I have compressed the timeline outlined below.

1. Connection wire fell off of electric gas pump. Since it was my first "night run" I wrongly presumed it was a situation where the generator or battery failed as it happened within 3-5 minutes of turning the headlights on. Turns out, my headlights still crap out after about five minutes, but that's another story that I'm going to have to work out.

2. Tried to repeatedly jump start with no luck. Engine would turn and try to start, but fail.

3. Discovered disattached wire from electric gas pump and it started right up. Made sure this wouldn't fall off again.

4. Three hours later, went to start car and nothing. No clicks, nothing. Tried to jump start again with no luck.

5. Assuming (correctly as the parts store confirmed) the battery was dead, I put it on a charger overnight. At the time noted a pigtail wire connected to battery clamp with a crimp connector on the end (see photo). Assumed it was from where somebody had connected a battery tender at one time.  Next morning, still no juice so I went and bought a new Optima battery. Still wouldn't start.

6. Tried to crank with screwdriver by crossing posts on the starter/solenoid. Success! Apparently I didn't fry any electrical components by jump starting as I had feared. But...I didn't want to go around and have to start the car with a screwdriver.

7. Picked up new starter button and wire as the problem had to be in the system somewhere between the battery and the solenoid. Cleaned battery cable connections. Tightened loose nuts on starter. Replaced starter button. No luck.

8. Getting ready to rewire the starter button, I started tracing the existing wires (not necessary what or where they needed to be...but they DID work before all this mess started). Discovered that the one wire coming off the starter lead back to the battery area had a stripped end and was waving in the wind. At some point in all of my trevails of jump starting and/or replacing the battery, it had somehow pulled loose. It was then that I pieced the puzzle together that this wire had been connected to the pigtail on the negative post. Reconnected, and voila! I'm back in business.

Bottom line...none of this was a problem with the car itself. It was a mixture of added on modern wiring, my ignorance, and a battery which may have been going bad. It was an ugly, stupid series of scenarios, but one which I gained valuable experience from. Now on to sort out the headlight problem I'm having...



Jon Isaacson

1939 LaSalle 5019

ebuliavac

Thanks for that information.  Sounds like your car is running exclusively on an electric fuel pump.  I wouldn't mind having one to fill the carburetor bowl after it's been sitting, but I drive mine often enough.

Perhaps resistance somewhere in your headlight wiring might be the issue, including, of course, proper ground?  Anyway, if you re-wire the car, these problems should disappear for a long time.

Thanks for getting back so soon.

Best regards,

Ed
1940 6227C
1996 Fleetwood Brougham

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#19
Good job. And thanks for the update-hate when people don't close these threads out.
You say you don't do much electrical...... well you just did! You figured out where the problem was as you say in #7 above. It's all about narrowing down where the problem is and then dissecting that part of the circuit.
Good job.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille