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1969 DeVille Convertible Project

Started by sturner50502, February 17, 2018, 09:31:06 PM

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sturner50502

Hello Everyone,

I recently bought my car, almost sight unseen. I saw the car on-line, asked the owner a couple of questions, had him send me some photos, drove 50 miles to the cars location and bought it on faith (and taking the owners word) that it was as solid as it looked.

I really look forward to making this car road worthy and something that I will enjoy driving. If I get a couple of “thumbs up” approvals, that will be the icing on the cake.

Anyway, the pictures are attached showing the car being loaded on the tow truck just after I bought it.

Any words of wisdom will be welcomed. My plan is to do the interior first because the seats are so bad I don't even want to sit on them, then the engine, the exterior (paint) and the top last. Any input from experienced restorers would be appreciated.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

DaddyDeVille

Welcome Sturner,

What did you pay for it if you don't mind me asking?  I bought my 67 this last fall and though it is further along than yours; I'm sure your going to love it.  Mine isn't a concourse or restore job; but its on its way to being totally road worthy.  I like your comment about being "road worthy and something that you will enjoy driving.  The little bit I can recommend (depending on the direction you want to go) is EFI.  It was expensive, but fairly easy to install and makes the car cold start and drive wonderfully every time.

Quote from: sturner50502 on February 17, 2018, 09:31:06 PM
I really look forward to making this car road worthy and something that I will enjoy driving.
1 Old car (The Green Devil~le) (Lots of gas)
1 New Truck (Not quite lots of gas, but still a lot of gas)
1 New Car (no gas)
1 Newish Bike (Some gas)
1 Old bike (Some more gas)

https://chuckdidit.wordpress.com/
https://www.instagram.com/mightneedoil/

savemy67

Hello Steve,

A few decades ago I had a '69 convertible.  Even though they are very similar, I like the '69s more so than the 70s.  I appreciate the fact that you have chosen to do a "resurrection/reincarnation" of your car.

From photo number 2, showing the headrests, I might guess that the car spent some time outside, topless.  I would therefore spend some time thoroughly examining the floor pan (remove the seats) and trunk pan (remove the spare tire and trunk liner).  There is solid, and then there is "as solid as it looks" - which, from the photos, doesn't look too solid.

On this body style, the lower front fenders are prone to rust, but this is a relatively easy fix.  Leaking convertibles in general might have rust issues in the floor, trunk, and rear quarter.

Before spending any money on any restoration, even if it just to get the car road-worthy, do a thorough, and I mean no-stone-unturned thorough assessment/inventory of the car.  Listing all that needs to be repaired/replaced first will help you establish a budget and timeline.  You can then decide if this car is worth the time and money.

I bought my '67 Sedan DeVille knowing that it needed some work, including rust repair of the front fenders and around the rear window.  Being a hardtop, my interior needs no work other than cleaning and conditioning.  I am doing all my own work.  When I finish my '67, my next Cadillac may well be a '69 convertible.  Good luck with your project, and keep us posted.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

conv69

Welcome Sturner50502
It is good to see another 69 project going on.
I agree with savemy67 you have to pull the carpet and check the floors. Another spot to check is under the drivers kick panel I had a couple layers of rot under there too.
trunk was behind both wheel wells for me and believe it is pretty common. As he also says you should put a list together and evaluate first as the 69/70 has been skipped over in a lot of the reproduction parts.
Especially floor pans, body panels etc.. From what I can see it is already in better shape than what it started with but I have owned for about 30 yrs and have the emotional attachment.
I also agree that it looks like it was stored with the top down? Even the boot appears to have been on the convertible top? Seats and visor do seem to have been exposed to the elements?
For the motor I would at the least check out he timing chain if you look at my pictures you can see how full the oil pickup was with the plastic pieces that had fallen off the chain. There are plenty of motor parts out there
that is one thing that wasn't skipped.
Looking forward to seeing our progress!!

~Rick Laflamme

sturner50502

Quote from: DaddyDeVille on February 18, 2018, 01:47:35 AM
Welcome Sturner,

What did you pay for it if you don't mind me asking?  I bought my 67 this last fall and though it is further along than yours; I'm sure your going to love it.  Mine isn't a concourse or restore job; but its on its way to being totally road worthy.  I like your comment about being "road worthy and something that you will enjoy driving.  The little bit I can recommend (depending on the direction you want to go) is EFI.  It was expensive, but fairly easy to install and makes the car cold start and drive wonderfully every time.

I paid $1500 for it.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

sturner50502

Quote from: savemy67 on February 18, 2018, 11:12:29 AM
Hello Steve,

A few decades ago I had a '69 convertible.  Even though they are very similar, I like the '69s more so than the 70s.  I appreciate the fact that you have chosen to do a "resurrection/reincarnation" of your car.

From photo number 2, showing the headrests, I might guess that the car spent some time outside, topless.  I would therefore spend some time thoroughly examining the floor pan (remove the seats) and trunk pan (remove the spare tire and trunk liner).  There is solid, and then there is "as solid as it looks" - which, from the photos, doesn't look too solid.

On this body style, the lower front fenders are prone to rust, but this is a relatively easy fix.  Leaking convertibles in general might have rust issues in the floor, trunk, and rear quarter.

Before spending any money on any restoration, even if it just to get the car road-worthy, do a thorough, and I mean no-stone-unturned thorough assessment/inventory of the car.  Listing all that needs to be repaired/replaced first will help you establish a budget and timeline.  You can then decide if this car is worth the time and money.

I bought my '67 Sedan DeVille knowing that it needed some work, including rust repair of the front fenders and around the rear window.  Being a hardtop, my interior needs no work other than cleaning and conditioning.  I am doing all my own work.  When I finish my '67, my next Cadillac may well be a '69 convertible.  Good luck with your project, and keep us posted.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the tips! You are correct the car was left outside, with the top down.  The first thing I did with the car was remove the seats, carpeting, and door panels. I brushed , scraped and cleaned the floor pans and find they have very little rust; just a couple of small holes. The rust is minor enough to be repaired with a tube of the epoxy that is made for repairing metal. I also checked the trunk and the pant has no rust issues at all. I guess that's the good part about southern California, we don't get much rain.

The lower front fenders do have some rust that I will have taken care of at the body and paint stage.

I am currently getting the seats re-upholstered. I purchased the seat covers from OPGI. When the seats are finished and installed I will post some before and after photos.

Thanks again,

Steve 
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

DeVille68

ok, very nice!

When I bought my 68 Convertible I immediately replaced all the weatherstripping with new rubber from Steele. Only about a year ago I discovered that the complete driver floor plan is rusted away. Well the weatherstripping was indeed leaking! :-D
But, it does not bother me much - it is not an integral part of the body structure.
Be sure the replace all the weatherstripping on yours! Not only because of rain, but it will keep the windnoise out too.
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

sturner50502

Quote from: DeVille68 on February 23, 2018, 01:50:29 PM
ok, very nice!

When I bought my 68 Convertible I immediately replaced all the weatherstripping with new rubber from Steele. Only about a year ago I discovered that the complete driver floor plan is rusted away. Well the weatherstripping was indeed leaking! :-D
But, it does not bother me much - it is not an integral part of the body structure.
Be sure the replace all the weatherstripping on yours! Not only because of rain, but it will keep the windnoise out too.

Good point. Weatherstripping i has been added to the list! Thanks
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

sturner50502

#8
Reupholstered Font and Rear Seats

Here are some updated photos of my front and rear seats. I purchased seat covers from Original Parts Group Inc. (OPGI). The seat covers came in the original 1969 design. I decided to go this route because I want to keep the car as original as possible (I prefer the original look instead of customization). The quality of the OPGI seat covers is really good. I was really happy with how the covers look and feel like leather. The seat cover kit cost me around $700. I took the cover to my good friend who owns an upholstery shop and he added fresh cushions, repaired broken springs, and attached the OPGI seat cover. He told me that he charges more than $700 to make seat covers.

The only thing missing from the OPGI cover is the buttons that gives the seats the "tuft" look, which was disappointing. Unfortunately, I could only find a couple of the buttons in the debris of the deteriorated seats, and the buttons I found were so deteriorated they were unusable. If I can find some buttons in the future, They can be added to the seats.

Attached are before and after photos. The finished seats are not installed yet, as I have been working on the carpeting/flooring. I will add photos after the seats are installed.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

James Landi

Steve,

Does the engine "turn over?"  Does it start and run, or has the engine been dormant for years. You'll receive a lot of good advice about getting the "old gal going" depending on your response.  There are many things you simply should not do, and will potentially lead to a wrecked engine, and many mechanical processes you should do, again depending on your responses to my first questions to you.  Of course, all of the advice is also dependent on how experienced you are with automotive mechanics.  Looks like you have a great potential winner for very little money.  We all wish you well along your journey-- don't hesitate to post questions, and certainly keep the pictures coming--- we all love the pictures and detailed narratives.  Happy day, James

sturner50502

Quote from: James Landi on March 22, 2020, 09:13:58 AM
Steve,

Does the engine "turn over?"  Does it start and run, or has the engine been dormant for years. You'll receive a lot of good advice about getting the "old gal going" depending on your response.  There are many things you simply should not do, and will potentially lead to a wrecked engine, and many mechanical processes you should do, again depending on your responses to my first questions to you.  Of course, all of the advice is also dependent on how experienced you are with automotive mechanics.  Looks like you have a great potential winner for very little money.  We all wish you well along your journey-- don't hesitate to post questions, and certainly keep the pictures coming--- we all love the pictures and detailed narratives.  Happy day, James

Hi James,

The engine has been dormant for the almost two years that I have owned it and I am sure it was dormant for years under the previous owner. When I brought it home I checked to see if it would turn over and it did. I did not try to start it. It turned over for about 1-2 seconds... I only want to make sure the engine wasn't locked up. I have not done anything else related to starting the engine because I focused on the interior and making sure there were no "creatures" living in the vents, etc.

So now the seats/interior are finished; I will be installing the seats and turning my attention to the engine. Any advice you can give me to keep me from damaging my engine would be appreciated. I pulled the valve covers as I was curious to see what it would look like (See photos). I wanted to check for any broken springs/ bent pushrods... I didn't find anything that to cause me concern.

I drained the oil and inspected it for and metal shavings. Didn't find anything in the oil. A visual inspection of the oil showed it was mostlyblack but I did see a slight brownish tint (almost milk chocolate color) swirling through the oil.

So, two requests for you James (and the rest of the forum):
1) What steps should I take to prevent damage to my engine as I attempt to get it started?
2) What does the light brown color in the oil indicate?

Thanks everyone for going along on this ride with me as I restore my 69....
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

James Landi

Hi Steve,

Thus far, this is all good news.  Implicit in  your response is that you understand gasoline engines, and you've already begun the "awakening" process.  A little bit of milkiness is some cause for concern, so my next step would involve a check of the engine block's cooling system.  Is the cooling system all connected-- is there coolant in the radiator?  Assuming that your car is not in freezing temperature--( a big assumption since I live in Maine) pouring water in to top off the system for the purposes of testing it would be fine.  So here's the object of this investigation--- has your engine been protected so engine  block is not cracked?  Does your engine have a small internal leak-- aka blown head gasket. Purchasing a cooling system pressure tester may be a good investment, or if you can get a loan on one, perhaps all you'll need it for is a one time diagnostic.  I'm assuming now that all the coolant hoses are in place, that there are no serious leaks in the water pump or interior heater core.  If you find that  it's a big project just to get the radiator, the hoses, and related parts to hold water/coolant, you can still check the integrity of the engine's cooling system by blocking off the several engine outlets and pumping - pressurizing the engine's cooling system. Clearly, if you can get a check on that, and it;s all good, then it makes sense to go on to the next level of testing--- however, if you have a cracked block, there''s no sense in wasting time on the engine.. I have spent time and money on a used engine that I installed, that had a cracked block-- water jackets around the cylinders crack,simp because the last person to use the car,  poured water into the cooling system, during freezing weather, and the block cracked.. believe me, it happens with old cars the wind up in the wrong hands,  Finally, if, after pressurizing the engine you find that there are no leaks, it's time to move to the next step.  James

DeVille68

Hi,
Congratulations! Cool, that you work on your 69. I have a "blog" here on the forum where I document the work I do on my 68.

Regarding the engine. I had a connecting rod bearing spun two years ago. The reason was probably a lubrication problem.
The main problem with the 472 and 500 is the oiling system, which is great, but the 7&8  connecting rod journal and 8 crank journal get oil last. So that means that there can be some debris and restrictions accumulating over time. Those are never flushed, so it is just a matter of time.
I personally now would do the following:
1) Remove the distributor and install a special tool to drive the oil pump with an drill
2) check that you get at least 10psi oil pressure. That is the light in the instrument cluster goes out. Before and after the "flushing procedure" I outline here.
3) Unscrew the oil pressure sensor on the back of the engine and just make a huge mess with oil while using your drill to pump oil through the system. Make sure to at least turn the crank 4 times while you are doing this.
4) This way you can "flush" the oil gallery and make sure that the 7&8 connecting rods receive fresh clean oil.

Then just start it.

Good luck!

Keep it up, I'll read your post but only responds when necessary.

Best regards,
Nicolas
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

sturner50502

Quote from: DeVille68 on March 22, 2020, 04:34:21 PM
Hi,
Congratulations! Cool, that you work on your 69. I have a "blog" here on the forum where I document the work I do on my 68.

Regarding the engine. I had a connecting rod bearing spun two years ago. The reason was probably a lubrication problem.
The main problem with the 472 and 500 is the oiling system, which is great, but the 7&8  connecting rod journal and 8 crank journal get oil last. So that means that there can be some debris and restrictions accumulating over time. Those are never flushed, so it is just a matter of time.
I personally now would do the following:
1) Remove the distributor and install a special tool to drive the oil pump with an drill
2) check that you get at least 10psi oil pressure. That is the light in the instrument cluster goes out. Before and after the "flushing procedure" I outline here.
3) Unscrew the oil pressure sensor on the back of the engine and just make a huge mess with oil while using your drill to pump oil through the system. Make sure to at least turn the crank 4 times while you are doing this.
4) This way you can "flush" the oil gallery and make sure that the 7&8 connecting rods receive fresh clean oil.

Then just start it.

Good luck!

Keep it up, I'll read your post but only responds when necessary.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Hi Nicholas,

I recently visited your blog and found it an inspiration to maybe start my own blog... I am giving it some serious thought. So, who knows I may create one myself.  I want to thank you for the info regarding pre-cranking procedure. I would sure hate to throw a connecting rod bearing. I will do some research and obtain those tools to get that procedure done before starting the engine.

Thanks again!
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

sturner50502

Woodgrain Door Panel Insert Repair

I am creating this post to show everyone what I did to repair my woodgrain inserts. As a reminder to everyone on this post, when I purchased this vehicle, it had been left outside, with the top down, which would not have mattered if the top was up because the convertible top was nearly completely deteriorated... but I digress. Anyway, the following explains the steps I took to repair my woodgrain inserts.

Prior to starting this project, I did some on-line research and learned the original factory woodgrain was a "cherrywood" color. More research and I was able to find 3M Cherrywood vinyl wrap. I also learned that some of the wood grains run vertically and others run horizontally. A close inspection of what was left of my woodgrain inserts showed the woodgrain was horizontal. 

I am extremely satisfied with the results. I did this with regular tools, in my garage, working on it a little at a time. The photos show the results.

- After removing the door panels from the door I was able to access the screws on the inside of the panel. I removed the screws which allowed the woodgrain insert to separate from the door panel.
- I found the factory woodgrain material was attached to a metal plate. I separated the woodgrain plate that was riveted to the frame that surrounds the woodgrain.
- Using a dremel tool, I cut off the rivets that held the metal woodgrain plate to the frame.
- I then scraped and sanded..and scraped... the old woodgrain off of the metal plate.
- After getting the metal plate clean and smooth I attached the 3M vinyl wrap, ensuring the grain was horizontal. It is important to make sure the metal plate is clean and smooth because any imperfections would transfer through the vinyl wrap.
- The vinyl wrap required a heat gun to activate the glue backing. It also made the vinyl wrap more pliable and easier to work with.
-  I then set the newly wrapped metal plate back in its frame, and using epoxy, I reattached the frame to the woodgrain covered metal plate. I think I could have got away without the epoxy but I didn't want the wood grain to move around within the frame.
- I repeated this process with the other door panel, the rear panels and the dashboard.

I initially thought I was going to have to buy new wood grain inserts. You can imagine; the inserts would have all been in different condition, possibly not matching, and that depends on if I could even find them. This fix was a very good solution to my problem. The 3M vinyl wrap was about $30 and the roll was large en ought o cover all four panels and the dashboard with plenty left over.

The below photos show the results of some of the steps (I don't have step-by-step photos). Let me know what you think. Also feel free to critique or offer your own ideas as it may help someone else with this same problem.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
 
   
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

sturner50502

Door Panel Repair

This post is to show the steps I took to repair my door panels. First of all, the door panels are extremely difficult to find. I was able to find a set (by calling around on the phone). The owner told me the set was from a hard top, not a convertible. He said, "they should fit." I'm not sure how true that is... Any way, he wanted $700 each; Yep $1400 ( I paid $1500 for the whole car) for a pair of door panels, that may or may not fit, and the color was wrong, and they were not in good condition!

Anyway, my door panels were in pretty bad shape as they were out in the weather for who knows how long...? When I bought the car, the seller told me the car was in a garage for a while but they put it out in the yard because they needed more room inside the garage. He didn't tell me "how long" the car was outside. I saw the door panels were curled in the carpeted area but I naively thought that I could easily find replacements.

Little side note here: I bought this car because I wanted a convertible. Never owned one before. Also, I owned a 1970 coupe deville when I was High school and I loved that car. The engine was so smooth I would sometimes forget the thing was running. (man, if I could have that car now. I sold it because I could not afford the gas. Wait, I could not afford any gas at that point in my life.) Back to the side note; I did not do any research on 1969 parts availability, etc. I simply saw the car was available, the owner wanted $1500, I had $1500; I wanted the car and he took my money.

So, when I saw the door panels were curling at the bottom, I thought it would be an easy replacement. Boy was I worng. But, I did find a much more reasonable repair than the $1400 replacement option. This is what I came up with:

I bought chip board (two different thicknesses), that can be found at most upholstery supply shops, and a can of spray glue.

-The first thing I did was to remove the carpeting (opr what waas left of it) from the bottom of the door panel.
- I then flattened out the curling at the bottom (carpeted area) of the card board door panels. I did this by using a wet sponge/rag; I wet the card board little-by-little by pushing the sponge and rag onto the card board until it got moderately wet.
- When I was able to manipulate and bend the card board with my hand, I placed the wet cardboard between two flat boards and I clamped the boards together. After a couple of days, I removed the clamped boards and the card board panel was dry and flat.
- I then glued the thin chip board to the inside of the door panel, across the entire bottom of the door panel. This gave me a base to attach the thick board to (by the way, the thick board is the same thickness as the original door panel.
- I cut out any part of the original panel that was damaged. I replaced the damaged area with the thick chip board. I then attached another piece of thin chip board to the outside of the door panel. This sandwich ensured the thick chip board would remain in place.
- The lower panel is now ready for carpeting.

You will see from the photos that one of the panels was so bad I had to remove almost all of the original lower door panel. I was able to leave about three inches of the factory card board door panel.

The below photos show the work that I did. The panels are still a work in progress but you can at least see how I repaired the broken/deteriorating card board door panel.

If any one has additional information, please feel free to share and/or critique. Maybe someone has a better idea for those who may have a door panel problem.

Thanks for checking in on me and my progress.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

DeVille68

Nice work,

I used epoxy on mine and clamped the board together. There is a post somewhere in my blog.

Regarding the oil system. You can make an adapter for the oil pressure sensor. This way you can keep track of the pressure and not make a huge mess at the back while flushing the oil galleries.
The thread is 1/4'' pipe thread.
Best regards,
Nicolas
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

sturner50502

Quote from: DeVille68 on March 23, 2020, 11:57:40 AM
Nice work,

I used epoxy on mine and clamped the board together. There is a post somewhere in my blog.

Regarding the oil system. You can make an adapter for the oil pressure sensor. This way you can keep track of the pressure and not make a huge mess at the back while flushing the oil galleries.
The thread is 1/4'' pipe thread.
Best regards,
Nicolas

Nicolas,

Excellent tip! I will use this adapter. I was imagining abig clean up job after the oil flush. Seems that has been solved. Thank you.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

spolij

#18
If fixing the door panels your way doesn't work you can use rubber walkway mats. Flat on one side ridges on the other side. Take some strips of sheet metal and epoxy them to the ridged side of the mats. One on the bottom and each end space 8 to 10 inches between them. The strips can be bent to match the curve at the top of the panel that will hold the contour of the mat in place. You can glue foam and then leather over the form. If you need the mats stiffer you can buy thin pressed cardboard. And a local printer can get it or tell you where to go.
Actually I guess you could use thicker pressed cardboard, formica or masonite to make the entire panel.
John

sturner50502

Wire Loom Fasteners

Hello CLC Friends,

Does any one know where I can find (or even if they are avaialble) the plastic loop fasteners that hold the wiring loom to the firewall and fender-well? I have spent a lot of time searching the internet with no luck. If these are no longer available, can anyone suggest a professional looking alternative?

The attached photo shows one of the many that have broken.

Thank you for your help/advice.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance