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1948 hydra-matic help, please

Started by kkarrer, July 17, 2012, 08:38:18 PM

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kkarrer

Hello,
    I know that some of you guys have quite a bit of experience with hydra-matics and I could use some help here.  The unit was professionally rebuilt, but the guy is in California and is no longer available.  I have step by step photos of the rebuild and vintage parts suppliers/rebuilders around the country say the guy knew his stuff.  The problem is that the transmission will not properly function in "hi" gear.  It moves to about 10 mph and then slips and doesn't recover.  Lo, Reverse, and Neutral are ok, though the manual shift out of reverse is a little tough.  I have the 1948 manual and I've adjusted the front and rear bands twice with no change in the result.  On the first test drive (one block) I was a bit low on fluid (about a qt. and 1/2), but bringing the fluid to the correct level did not improve or change the situation at all.  Except for more lifter noise than I'm used to hearing from a 346, (sounds like a loud sewing machine) everything else with the car is fine.  At idle, the heads show 180 degrees, the upper radiator tank is about 168 and the lower is about 155.  Exhaust manifold temp is under 350 and intake temp is 185. The transmission case after a short drive, at idle is warm, about 120 degrees, but there are no odd sounds emanating from the tranny under load or shift.  At fast or slow idle in Neutral, engine warm, the fluid level shows Full.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken Karrer
1941 6227D coupe
Austin, Texas
kkarrer@austin.rr.com
512-626-7268

Doug Houston

I always hear: PROFESSIONALLY this and PROFESSIONALLY that on things like transmissions, and other items of critical character.

You have no idea what the "rebuild" consisted of on your transmission. The guy who rebuilt it is away out of your reach, so there's a dead end there.

At the time I was restoring my '41 Cadillacs, there was nobody to go to whom I could trust. So, just gritting my teeth, I simply re-did the Hydra-Matics mysefl, and they turned out perfectly. I know that all of this is of no help, but at least, I know what went into the transmissions, and that they function as perfectly as new.

I have a guy a few miles from here who is one of two guys who I'll let touch my transmissions. They both work for Hydra-Matic at the GM proving grounds. There are too many "professionals" who couldn't set a watch properly.   
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

kkarrer

Doug,
     I agree with your assessment of "professional" and that's why I do all of my own work with a restoration with the exception of interior and auto trans.  As a former economics teacher I know that at some point comparative advantage should kick in and I maximize my time on the things I do best by sometimes hiring others to do what I don't have time or the specialized tools to undertake.  I can remove, adjust, and install modern transmissions, but I have a lead guy for Aamco in this part of the country who does my modern transmission rebuilds.  He's very good, but is honest about his training and expertise and he's way too young to have had any experience with these early hydramatics.  I'm hoping that I can get someone here on the forum or a connection like one of your two guys, to talk me through some trouble shooting, before I do some shooting of a different kind.  By the way, I stuck with the hydra-matic because the car was originally equipped with one and that's fairly rare for a 6227D coupe.  The engine number matches the frame and I was trying to keep the drive train as original as possible, but I'm getting more and more tempted to pull the darned auto trans and put a standard in.  With the higher speed hydra-matic rear end, it should be a good runner.
Thanks,
Ken Karrer 1941 (with 1948 hydra-matic) 6227 D coupe

wrench

#3
Ken, while doing some internet surfing regarding hydramatics (I'm a ford guy, so they are new to me) a while ago, I came across this guy. Apparently he is big into older Pontiacs and is an authority on early hydramatics. I was going to contact him when/if I want to rebuild my spare trans for my 1951.

Even though he is in the northeast, he may be able to talk to you via the phone to point you in a direction with your problem.

Steve Peluso
Lee Myles
5201 Washington St
Roxbury MA 02132
Ph 617-327-2122

Btw, if you do talk to him, let me know how it went as I may be using him myself...
Jim
1951 Series 62 Sedan
1969 Eldorado
1970 Eldorado (Triple Black w/power roof)
1958 Apache 3/4 ton 4x4
2005 F250
2014 FLHP
2014 SRX

kkarrer

Jim,
     Thanks.  I'm going to give adjusting the bands (I'm kind of assuming that the front band is the culprit) another try today after work.  I don't have a rotation counter (special tool mentioned in the 41 and 48 manual), but I've painted one corner of the adjustment bolt so that I can keep up with the number of turns I take after the spike in the rpm.  I've tried taking it 1/2 and 1 full turn tighter, but that had no effect.
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Ken,
This might not be any help, but years back I (never having taken apart a 4 speed hydro) rebuilt one that I used behind a big block Chevrolet for quarter mile jaunts.  The relevance is that I did it with just common tools, and the band adjustments are not difficult. First speed-both bands on/ both clutches off.  Second speed front band off, clutch on, rear band on, clutch off.  You say that it operates Okay in "lo", and that is first and second gear.
What changes when you shift into third speed is the front band comes back on, so if it slips there IF you have the band adjusted correctly, I would look to the throttle pressure linkage adjustment.
Front band adjustment can be done by the "RPM" method.  Warm the engine up, back off the front adjustment band locking nut, back off the front band adjusting screw until the the engine speed hits 900 to 1000 RPM (In Lo, with the wheels blocked). Slowly turn the adjustment screw in (clockwise) until the RPM drops to 700, and if the engine speed stays at 700, tighten down the locking screw.
The rear band is done likewise with the car in the "Drive" range position.
The throttle pressure linkage adjustment seems to be critical on these transmissions, and I can not offer any help here.  I used a 2 position selector for my application.  You might try and "feed in" a little more throttle pressure adjustment and see what happens.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

kkarrer

Greg,
      Thanks for the reply. (Hard to believe that somebody used one of these early hydras for racing, given that they weigh a ton.)  You may have hit on something here re. the throttle pressure adjustment.  I may need some clarification on what you mean by "feed in some more throttle pressure."  As to the band adjustments,  I was thinking that the front band was adjusted in "Hi" or Drive and that you use N and Hi/Dr when adjusting the rear band, but I'll have to check that.  I have the shifter linkage adjusted correctly I think, but I must confess that the throttle linkage adjustment was a bit confusing.  I'll go back and re-read that.  I seem to remember some reference to "special tools" there.  If anyone reading this can clarify the Throttle Control Linkage Adjustment instructions for me I'd appreciate the help.  I mentioned that the transmission works in Lo and it does move forward without slippage, but there is no second, upward shift in Lo. I don't know if there's supposed to be a shift in Lo or not.  The only thing I can find in the  manual's Diagnosis Chart that might apply is the item 16...Transmission drives car in 1st. speed, but acts as if it were in neutral after shifting out of 1st. speed.
Shiftless in Austin...
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe

Jay Friedman

In one of his postings Ken said "......I'm getting more and more tempted to pull the darned auto trans and put a standard in.  With the higher speed hydra-matic rear end, it should be a good runner......"

I did this to my '49 many years ago and have never regretted it.  Advantages are:
1. In my opinion the car is more fun to drive;
2. I can fix it myself;
3. It shifts at the speeds I want;
4. It's more economical as parts and even complete manual transmissions are less costly.

Take that, you partisans of Hydramatic!
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

gene harl

Ken,,, I know you don't want hear this,, but it sounds to me like you have lost the front clutch seal..or you may have a valve body problem ... I would bet on the seal... I have built a few of these ,, to bad you are soo far away ,,I could help,,, good luck..
Gene Harl    CLC 22406

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Ken,
"Just for fun", when you put the selector in "Drive" range and start out, does the transmission shift from first to second?  Some of these early "Pelicans" would start in 2nd when you had the selector in low range.  Something to do with a "soft" start in rain or ice.  That would be in the valve body, but if it slips when shifting from first to second, I would suspect some internal maladies IF it was assembled corectly.
Greg.
PS The "stick hydro" was the epitome of racing technology in 1966. 
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Jeff Maltby 4194

Jeffo 49er chapter

CLC 1985
Honda Gold Wing GL1500

kkarrer

Gentlemen,
      Thanks for the replies (Jeff, I posted on Ateupwithmotor.com).  I'll try adjusting the throttle control linkage this evening after work and then I'll revisit the band adjustment.  I would think that the control linkage needs to be lengthened for more effect so I'll try taking a few turns on it and see what happens. If that doesn't work I'll try making contact with some of the guys that you've recommended.  Either way I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again,
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe

Doug Houston

This is gotten to be an exercise of the blind lading the blind. I have a few other names to call a mess like this.

1) you have no idea in the world just what's inside that transmission case.

2) the thing appears to be not responding to whatever you do to it.  There should be SOME response to the adjustments. Something in that transmission is either missing, damaged, or worn.

It's now a matter of getting the thing out of the car, get the hydra-Matic service books, and do the damned thing yourself.  It's not rocket science. I'm a grad EE, and if I can do it successfully, many others should be able.   

Taking a 1948 transmission to a modern repair shop is futile. Any of them will take the job, but when the mechanic sees the inside of it, he's lost. Also, the notion of taking such a transmission to a chain rebuild shop is like taking our Rolex to a guy who specializes in Big Ben alarm clocks.

Get a seal kit for that transmission. There should be someone less expensive that that guy who advertises kits for 300 or 400 bucks.  Get a Hydra-Matic manual from some place like eBay, and follow the instructions.

If it goes back together properly, it will be downright amazing. Two of my '41's have '49 Cadillac transmissions, and I can correctly call them perfect. One of the cars has  '51 Cadillac trans in it, and it too, works beautifully.

And where did you get this about H-M trans being unusual in a club coupe?? Those transmissions were installed in all '41 models. I have one in my '41 62 coupe.

38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

kkarrer

Doug,
     Thanks for your response.  I didn't get to do too much tonight and wouldn't you know it...ran out of gas on the test run.  I'm sure somebody is laughing right now.  I tried shortening the throttle adjustment linkage and it might have made a bit of difference.  When the time for the shift came it felt more like slipping bands than just a drop into neutral.  It would also help if I knew whether or not when the trans is in L if it has one or two shifts.  Under hard accel it feels like it's trying to upshift when it's in L.  You're right about HM's being in all 41 models, but I saw some production numbers somewhere that indicated that they were more common in the four door sedans than in the coupes.  I was told that this was because the standard trans was seen as a bit more sporty.  But heck, what do I know...I did a complete nut and bolt frame off on this car and can't get it to run right.  I must admit it sure looks good though.  That reminds me that I need to update my pictures.  I'm going to double check the band adjustments again tomorrow and really shorten up on that linkage...maybe since it sat with no fluid in it for few months it needs a little tough love.  I'll keep you posted.
Thank you again,
Ken

gene harl

Ken,,, the bands are not the problem,, if they was ,it would not move at all..I would drop the pan and see whats in the bottom and if the oil smells burnt...  You sound like a good hand with a wrench,, these are not hard to work on,, just nuts and bolts, only extra  tools you need is a pair of snap ring pliers and a press,, and good manual,,,  if you want to talk to me ,, my # is 775-423-8568
Gene Harl  CLC 22406

kkarrer

Gene,
    Good to know about the bands.  I'll move on to the throttle linkage.  It seemed to make a little difference, but I didn't take it very far.  Do you know if these transmissions should have 2 gears in low (one up shift) or is there just the one speed?
I'll be getting in touch.  I have the 48 HM shop manual.
Thanks,
Ken

gene harl

Ken.. It is trying to shift to 2nd, but the front clutch is not engaging,, probity do to and oil leak at the front clutch lip seal... this can be checked by removing the side cover and the valve body and applying air pressure to the front clutch apply port to see where it is leaking at..what year is the trans?? look at the tag on the right side of the trans for a C-41 or a C-48 ,, stands for cadillac and the year.. when was it rebuilt ??
Gene Harl   CLC22406

kkarrer

Gene,
The transmission is a 1948.  The rebuild was completed by Restoration Hydramatics this spring.
Thanks,
Ken Karrer 1941 6227 D coupe

gene harl

Ken.. well if it was just rebuilt , they screwed up some place.. the old style lip seals used a brass expander ring and they were a real bear to get in right.. new ones don't use that..it could be broken ring on the oil deliver sleeve.. it don't take but a little bit of slipping to burn the clutchs and they are no good..if it was me, I would just pull it ,, remove the oil pan and the side pan, valve body, and gov.look in the book for the picture of the oil ports and apply air to see where the leak is  and go from there.. or you might take the oil pan down first just to see if there any peices ,,,,
  Gene Harl    CLC22406

kkarrer

Gene,
     Yes, I remember hearing that the clutches can slip and go bad and I think I might be able to replace them as the parts are available...if that's the case the question is... what caused them to slip?
I haven't drive the car more than 3 or 4 blocks and it was slipping on the first run.  I'd guess that you're thinking faulty installation, but I wouldn't want to repeat the same goof up.  I'll run a couple more tests and then drain this thing and drop the pan and side covers as you suggest and see what things look like.
Thanks,
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe