Cadillac RWD Wire Wheels...

[Driver8]

Hi guys,

Based on the attached pics, can anyone verify if these wheels must run with an inner tube and/or verify if all 1978 & '79 Seville Elegantes had inner tubes in the wheels? I'm not even certain yet that these are '78/79 or that they're different from the 1980 up with the deeper chrome lip.



Someone told me these with the black hex caps (as opposed to round red caps), are English made (Dunlop?) '78/79 Cadillac and require an inner tube. If I decide to use them, Im wondering if I could do a silicone seal like on Daytons, etc to not have to run a tube. But some spokes are on and near the bead w/o the recessed lip like '80+ Fleetwoods, etc.


Anyhow, I will have them in my possession tomorrow to look for any special markings, stamps or labels, etc and be able to relay that additional info then.

Any help, thoughts or ideas appreciated on this.

Thanks much, Mark Allen~

[76eldo]

They look like front wheel drive wheels to me.

Brian

[Driver8]

Hey Brian,

I agree because the spokes are right on the bead edge, has a FWD 'look'. But here's a promo pic from Cadillac with the wheels, and another person who has them installed on a 1st Gen Seville.

They look just like the wheels on many vintage Jags, I guess they are this style directly because supposed to be made by Dunlop in England. The 1980 RWD Cadillac wires with the lip, I think were made by Appliance Wheel in USA and def did not need a tube inside.

Mark~

[76eldo]

They are beautiful wheels. I hope they fit. Based on your picture they will.

Brian

[txturbo]

Yep....they look like tubeless FWD late model wheels.

[TJ Hopland]

Wasn't the first gen Seville the 5 on 5 bolt pattern like the rest of the big cars?   The 79-85's are the slightly smaller pattern. 

[Driver8]

Wasn't the first gen Seville the 5 on 5 bolt pattern like the rest of the big cars?   The 79-85's are the slightly smaller pattern. 

The 1st year 1976 models had the smaller 4 x ... bolt pattern and rear drum brakes, (like a Nova). 1977-'79 went to the larger 5x5 when they added 4 wheel disc brakes that they used off of the Fleetwood Brougham.

[Gene Beaird]

If they require a tube, I'd expect to see the spokes sticking into the area between the tire bead area with no seal.  Usually wire wheels that are tubeless have a rubber strap around where the spokes are that seal them from the outside of the wheels.  If I came across a set like that I'd definitely be trying them on our 79.  The HAVE to be lighter than the steel wheels and wire hubcaps that come on some trim levels!!

[Driver8]

If they require a tube, I'd expect to see the spokes sticking into the area between the tire bead area with no seal.  Usually wire wheels that are tubeless have a rubber strap around where the spokes are that seal them from the outside of the wheels.  If I came across a set like that I'd definitely be trying them on our 79.  The HAVE to be lighter than the steel wheels and wire hubcaps that come on some trim levels!!

G morning,

I will have the access to the wheels later on today and will post some pictures on this thread to help get the answer on tubes.

I agree with you Gene, and I am def leaning towards making these work. Every previous set I have run across of these or 1980+ style were destroyed by salt with rust, flaking and silver spray paint. This set was discovered in storage during an estate sale house cleaning.

I think its worth the trouble to obtain the missing spokes at Dayton or Buchanan, and deal with tubes if thats what comes of this, because these have a true classic beauty and really belong on my car. Additionally, I won't risk damage to front steering parts, wheel bearings, etc. I am just not happy with the look of the Star Wires on the Seville. They are one of the best wheel designs to use on big body Cadillacs though. And, talk about weight... you could do bicep curls with your Star Wires, look like Arnold did in 1979 and all without even stepping into a gym

Mark~

[SixDucks]

Hi all, please post the backspace and offset measurements.
That should define what models these fit.
Terry

[Driver8]

OK, I have the wheels in my house now and am pretty psyched. The wheels are in amazing condition for 36yo. The center cap parts are all there, but the pot metal chrome is pretty pitted and dulled down on all 4 as seen in the picture. The crests are ok but faded/distorted under the resin, also easily replaceable from ebay. I will restore the black enamel centers, and add new crests but don't know what to do about the nasty finish on the chrome caps.  suggestions? (see pic)

What I am most excited about is after inspecting the inside of the wheels (as seen in attached pictures) someone already was running these with silicone drops sealed under heavy tape long ago. So, as long as the new tire bead seals up well on the rims, (and of course after I obtain & install the replacements for missing spokes), I will be able to seal both rows of spoke nipple screws with GE silicone and after a few days cure, a strip of hd gorilla tape. The lowrider community often does this on vintage wires with excellent results. I am quite certain that they will have no leaks thereafter. Worst case scenario... they slow-leak and I then add Michelin inner tubes to resolve that.

At any rate, they are the finest set I have seen online for over 4-5yrs, no rust, no flaking/pitting @ chrome or spokes and the price was very fair. I see sets on ebay/craigslist often of these or the 1980+ style all rusted, dented flaking and they want 1,000-1,200 + shipping so I did alright on this find. These center caps are quite rare as well (only made those 2 years) and are often on ebay for over $100 bucks each, just for a cap.

As mentioned earlier, there is no doubt that these were made by Dunlop of England for the 1978/'79 Seville, that information is posted all over the internet and stamped inside on these wheels as well. Built for the Elegante' package and optional in '78/'79 under RPO Code= PH8-AH WIRE WHEELS - LOCKING $569.00 The 'locks' were supplied back then by McGuard.

But if any of you know from real-world experience on the tubes in fact being run inside of these back then it would be great to know.

Thanks again, Mark~

[62 driver]

Good luck on your wheel spoke replacement.  I hope yup don't have to dismantle the whole rim to replace a few spokes.  I found that on the short 40 spokes you have to loosen all spokes to replace one.  They are inter locked.  Your can be ran tubeless do to the lip inside the rim.  Note the old rims did not have safety lips.  Here my story on wire rims.  Dave

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=127665.msg268314#msg268314

[Driver8]

Hi Dave,

Thanks so much, your info and the attached message thread are a huge help to me.  Wow, what a project you took on, congrats to you on doing such a fine job. My wheels do not require an overhaul, the chrome is amazing, just need to replace the missing spokes and be certain that I do not mess up the true of the wheels.

So far, I have been able to remove a couple of the short spokes (2 different lengths @ upper and lower spokes), I have then test relocated them in another position, or even on another wheel and am able to install them with the wheel as is. None of the large, long front hub spokes are missing, but I removed one to send to Buchanan to make a few to have around just incase.  I will prob go with Buchanan even for a bit extra $$ because they turn over fast. Even if Dayton does get thier stuff from Buchanan they said 3-4 weeks for polished SS spokes and that is w/o chrome. They said at least an additional 4-6 weeks if chromed. Buchanan said about a week for the SS spokes w/chrome nipples  and 3-4 weeks if chrome on spokes. I'm planning to polish the SS spokes myself and buy chrome nipples. Because the replaced spokes are in random spots, with me extra polishing the SS small spokes, it will be very difficult to even notice once installed back on the car.

Dave, I saw that you mentioned a safety lip inside of the rim allowing me to run tubeless. My biggest desire here is to run tubeless w/o leaks. (See attached pic with red arrows), Is the safety lip the 2 raised lines that come in around 1" from the rim edge/bead area? Having that means I can use tubeless radials safely?  I have Diamondback era-correct whitewall Toyos coming next week for this project. I should at least get a really good bead seal as I'll have 225/70s on a 6" wide wheel.

Having tubeless leaks on the outer spoke nipple row is the area of concern. They are seated so close to the bead, Im not sure I can get enough silicone seal to alleviate leaks, especially with spoke/nipple movement and any residual rust after wire brush drill clean. The lowrider community seems to prefer RTV silicone over say, windshield or roofing sealers. In reading their boards, they have good results with silicone seal, but most run Daytons with only the center nipple row. My outer row is much like a FWD layout, and I can't find anyone who has done a seal on that area. I will also use Permatex rust converter after cleaning (as I have on Star Wires). It creates a black almost rubber-like surface out of rust. One thing to note, this car is only driven about 500-1K miles per year, and only in perfect weather conditions. The only water it ever sees now is a wash, so that should help overall.


If Dave or anyone else wants to communicate with me or send over any helpful links/info on this project I've taken on, it would be greatly appreciated.
feel free to use this email>>  maltd@mac.com

I will post updates here as things progress and if anyone has anything to add here, please continue on this thread.

Mark~

[Gene Beaird]

Mark, I'd almost bet you have a 'seeper', or two, based on the pitting on the lip if you run tubeless.  Not a big issue, just something to remember before taking the car out for a drive.  We have some aluminum wheels on a race car of ours, and one of them has some small scratches on the lip which results in a tire that'll go flat in a week.  Hopefully you are luckier than we are but I'd be prepared to have to top off a tire on occasion.

They're beautiful!  Congrats on the find.  Pictures of the car with them on it, or this didn't happen.   

[Driver8]

Mark, I'd almost bet you have a 'seeper', or two, based on the pitting on the lip if you run tubeless.  Not a big issue, just something to remember before taking the car out for a drive.  We have some aluminum wheels on a race car of ours, and one of them has some small scratches on the lip which results in a tire that'll go flat in a week.  Hopefully you are luckier than we are but I'd be prepared to have to top off a tire on occasion.

They're beautiful!  Congrats on the find.  Pictures of the car with them on it, or this didn't happen.   

Hi Gene, the more I have been working on these this morning and after some communication with Dave, I don't see a way possible to really seal the outer bead nipples to where there will be no leaks. 2 of the wheels are very rusted inside along that spot from rain seepage and I don't wanna be filling the tires every week or 2, in addition, I generally run Nitrogen so slow-leaks are out of the question with that recurring cost. Sadly, I don't have an in-ground Nitrogen tank under my garage

Moreover, I just now discovered underneath tape, the remnant of a warning label inside 1 wheel. The remaining text is proof that these were running tubes when new from Cadillac. You can tell they are referring to tubes, the missing text on yellow label (see picture, you can see the B from BY and the BE from TUBE) > contacted.....  'BY TUBE' ...must be free of...  The upper missing label must have said tubes required or something like that.  THAT is the type of definitive info I have been seeking!

As far as pics, you bet. My new avatar right now has the Star Wires and 225/70/R15 Diamondback Hankooks installed. But as mentioned previously, I am not happy with the look for a Gen1 Seville. Those wheels and tires will look awesome on someone's '60s/'70s larger car. Those cars have the mass, presence and style lines to carry the 'heavy' look of a Star Wire.

On a sidenote, I haven't used a scale, but these Dunlop wheels are not that much lighter than the Weld/Cragar Star Wires, even though they are 1" narrower. Very well built though and beautiful chrome, especially for 36yo. It is nice to know though, that Cadillac chose them for my car and they 'belong' on it specifically (standard=Elegante', optional=Base)

Once I have these finished and installed, the New Diamondbacks and Star Wires I'm running now will be for sale here and on ebay.  It's gonna be a while for completion & pics since I have to wait for the spokes to be made and sent out, next install spokes & testing for true and fitment, then mount & balance. Will be thrilled to post the pics here once completed. And... even more-so to go for a long cruise <g>

Mark~