Grand National - less Cadillacs at show field - a developing trend?

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

- The CLC invites any year Cadillac or LaSalle car to be shown at any CLC event.

- The CLC gives members the choice of entering their cars for judging in two different divisions - Primary & Touring, plus the option of entering for "Display Only" for those not interested in having their cars judged.

- The CLC has recently added a Modified Class.

- CLC dues a very reasonable $40.00/year which includes 11 issues of the Self Starter magazine + the big annual directory which is an invaluable resource.

- CLC GN offers usually competitive group rates at the host hotel for CLC members and the guests/family members and a wide array of activities scheduled throughout the week of the GN.   

- CLC Forum offering online support to Cadillac owners - without even needing to become a member at all.

That said, I think the CLC has bent over backwards to be as inclusive, supportive and welcoming as reasonably as can be expected.

- Eric DeVirgilis

[STS05lg]

It is great to see everyone brainstorming to address the issue of lack of participation in some of our Grand Nationals and for that part overall in the opportunity to take part in various regional and local activities sponsored by the various regions. I would like to add to the discussion as others have mentioned that even though there are any number of people with an old Cadillac that they may tinker with or take out on a weekend drive, some do not bother to join the club or take part in the activities, I would suggest that this problem is two fold. First, I would recommend anyone that is interested in addressing this issue read an excellent book by Robert Putnam, titled "Bowing Alone." It appeared as a journal article in the mid 1990's and in book form in 2000. This book discusses the decline of social capital in modern America. This lose is reflected in the declining membership in community organizations like the Bowing Leagues, Community Softball teams, Lions, Elks, Chamber, and other community based organizations, ergo the title. His thesis is not that people do not engage in various activities, in fact, people are more active in various activities then at anytime in the past, but they are individual activities. .

The second broad change I would like to propose that somewhat addresses, is that younger people today are more interested in experiences when engaging in various off time activities. Where as us ageing baby boomers enjoy getting out and waxing the car or replacing an aging part on the Cadillac. Younger people are more interested in experiencing something new and different everyday and get impatient if something new is not available to do. I think of the 20 something interns at the office, they are a very bright and engaging group, however, I learned not to ask them to do a task that I had previous asked them to do and that they had completed successfully. Because by the third time I had given them a similar task, the task did not get done. They had moved on to something different.

For the members in there early 60s or late 50s here is a physical representative comparison. If you have one and I know almost everyone Forum has one, take a look at your I-Phone or Blackberry. Here is a fact, there is more computing power in that devise that you have in your hand, then was in the mainframe that designed and flew the Apollo space craft that carried Neil Armstrong to the moon. Individuals today are use to doing things faster and more diverse.

Therefore, I would like to propose that in the future if the club is to remain viable, that we are going to have to move from have the whole aim of an event being, to have our cars sitting out in a lot of field and sitting around waiting on the judges to come by, to offering participants various and diverse experiences. Laurie is on to something there as a result of here by using the USPSA.
As an example, look at the number of Classifiers they use: https://uspsa.org/classifiers/
While this may not be a direct comparison, I see what Laruie is trying to say, broaden the opportunity to participate by offering expanded opportunities to participate.

I know that we as the current active members of the CLC need to make incremental changes, or in another 10 or 15 years the organization may not be around. We can not be fooled by the turn out at the McLean Grand National last year, that is what could be considered an outlier event, a mid-east location, opportunity to visit the nations capital, outstanding hotel, multiple planned activities, and a dedicated local group of members that could dedicate the time, effort, and money to make the 2017 Grand National a tremendous success. The future is more in line with Las Vegas or San Marcos were the local team worked really hard to make them a success. However approximately 100 cars on the show field is not a good sign. As someone previous pointed out there are a huge number of members in California and Texas but they did not show up at the Grand National when the event was in their back yard.

Just a few observations for discussion, Best, Lynn

[oldcarguy]

- The CLC invites any year Cadillac or LaSalle car to be shown at any CLC event.

- The CLC gives members the choice of entering their cars for judging in two different divisions - Primary & Touring, plus the option of entering for "Display Only" for those not interested in having their cars judged.

- The CLC has recently added a Modified Class.

- CLC dues a very reasonable $40.00/year which includes 11 issues of the Self Starter magazine + the big annual directory which is an invaluable resource.

- CLC GN offers usually competitive group rates at the host hotel for CLC members and the guests/family members and a wide array of activities scheduled throughout the week of the GN.   ,

- CLC Forum offering online support to Cadillac owners - without even needing to become a member at all.

That said, I think the CLC has bent over backwards to be as inclusive, supportive and welcoming as reasonably as can be expected.

- Eric DeVirgilis

Yes, Eric I am with you on all points. Without going crazy adding new classes, one that might be considered is between the newly added modified class and original production cars, maybe a ''comtemporary'' class. You know, a car with a few changes, like 12v conversion, interior change .[no buckets!],etc, limited the number of changes from original to say 4 or 5.
I don't know, just putting out an idea.
Thanks to all who make this a great club.
Don

[Brett Baird]

I realize that the Grand National issue of the Self Starter usually has the stats for that particular years event, but I am curious whether anyone has ever compiled the statistics from each Grand National and arranged them in chronological order.


Since the original subject of this thread concerns the number of Cadillacs on the show field, I can only say that driving my '41 60S to both Las Vegas  Grand Nationals are among my fondest memories.  Driving a 75 year old car roughly 900 miles round trip at freeway speeds (and in temperatures exceeding 100 degrees in 2009) to share with Cadillac enthusiasts from all over the country was a pleasure - and one heck of a lot of fun.  I encourage everyone to try it. 

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Lynn! *DVC*! I was Open/Master class/Ladies. You?

I'm on the 65-70 Facebook Caddy page too. And I'd rather see a '69 Sedan de Ville bagged, lowered to gravel,
with a digital dash, bucket seats, a hemi and Foos wheels than rusting in a field.

KEEP the precious, old Caddy class, not an issue.

But if you open up, by decade, stock/cruiser/modified to judging, participation explodes.
Don't forget the youth, they're the future.

United States Practical Shooting Association
https://uspsa.org/

The guy who developed the scoring program for USPSA is a dear friend. He could write another program as a favor to me or for a modest sum as he's wealthy and retired. At a USPSA match, local or national, the RO (judge) inputs the shooter's time and scores on a tablet, which uploads immediately to the data base. You can see your placing rise (or fall) in real time. And this is for 7 classes of 10 (I think) divisions, including sub divisions (youth, ladies, LEO, military, senior, etc). Add for up to 500 shooters at the Nationals. Multiple divisions is a click away. PLEASE don't tell me theGN Nationals judges use paper.... And I agree, bring in a judge for that modified division who's well versed with the modifieds. Bring in a 'name' to go with the evening after dinner lecture...

You gotta give the person with the cruiser 60 Sedan or the 80 Seville a chance, they're paying dues too.

I have a room in my house dedicated to ME. Its nothing but ribbons, trophy's, framed articles from the show horses, race horses, dogs and shooting. Each one of those trophy's cost me thousands and who knows what in time. That's not the point. Its that damn $5 trophy... Give everyone a 'chance' to compete, to be recognized.  AND THEY WILL COME.

\m/
Laurie

[BJM]

Maybe just a tough year for the GN numbers.  I am in the Buick Club.  They had 164, they were in a Denver suburb, last week. 

This global warming - I am a conservative Republican -  it's real.  A lot of club's are moving their Nationals to June for temperature mitigation.  And it was HOT throughout the U.S, last week, and this week.


I think 164 is on the light side for Buick too. They have about 7000 members, and are still an active make.  So, what about reaching out to members to come to the GN?  Engaging regions, I don't know, maybe you folks do that already but it would be nice to have 200 to 300 cars.


Here in Iowa, every town has a "festival" sometime in the summer or fall. Some of them have no issue drawing 400 cars for a 9 hour event.  Many average 200 -250 cars.  Obviously, distance is a major factor.   

[z3skybolt]

O.K. Count me a dinosaur,

For that is what I am. Out with the dinosaurs and in with the elephants.  I am 71 and well on my road to eternity. I don't want to see us give up on that which has been. Rather I would hang on to the bitter end, let it die and be replaced by something like Laurie has  suggested.  Fine for her and the next generation. But don't screw with what I have longed for and adore. If, like the "Doolittle Raiders" we get down to only 3 or 4....then let us drink that bottle of Champagne and toss it against a stock/original 59 Cadillac tail fin. Let it die with myselfand my contemporaries. Let it be reborn anew...different tomorrow.

As a retired airline captain...I watched my world change from that of  manually flown aircraft, where the human brain was the computer: from an era of emphasis upon superior airmanship,physical excellence, high intelligence and human ability, when "aces" downed the enemy mano to mano.... to one of reliance upon technology, where "smart bombs"and missiles  find the target. Now"average" human can  push buttons and go for a ride.  NASA trained monkeys to do that in the 1950s.

During my time in the military....I saw standards drop to accommodate those who could not compete. Educational, mental and physical standards were lowered.  It all changed. Not saying that today's military is not equal to or superior to that of my own era or that of the GREATEST GENERATION....given technology.  Just different.  WW-2 Marines wouldn't recognize  the average leathernecks of today.

As a Boy Scout Leader in the early 2000s I watched as traditions and practices changed. I saw Boy Scouts become wimps by comparison to their ancestors. No more TAPPING OUT at ORDER OF THE ARROW inductions  We must "be gentle."  EAGLE SCOUTS were manufactured rather than earned.  Everyone had to succeed. Superior achievement were "equalized/averaged" and  meant nothing any more.  As of August....Boy Scouts is no more.  We are SCOUTING AMERICA. O.K. fine.  A new unisex world. Why not? Why not the CLC that Laurie and others suggest also?  Just different.  The end of uniqueness.  Ultralight pilots should be in the same reunion as F-22 fighter jocks. Rat rods and Classic Cadillacs. Everyone belongs. Mayo flavor.

I am a member of the United Methodist Church. It is a dying denomination as are many old line churches.  Our Church was once a backbone of our community. Now it is viewed as "old hat', boring not relevant. I agree all that is true. We are gray heads, not exciting...something between 70 and death. Our membership is declining. But...leave us alone. Let us die in peace, comfortable with the faith of our youth.  The past is ours. The future is yours.

My teacher wife had to lower standards in her classroom so that everyone felt equal. B grades became A and down the line, while the rest of the world passed America by. Everyone got a blue ribbon.  Everybody gets a trophy. Heck...even Kindergarten students wear "caps and gown" and get diplomas when they "graduate" from kindergarten.  My generation didn't even go to kindergarten. But we developed nuclear power and we went to the moon using slide rules.

Everything changes. The horse Calvary went away. Propeller driven airplanes where surpassed by Mach 3 jets. The Model T became an autonomous pod.. Automobiles replaced carriages.  Steam power was replace by nuclear.  Human endeavour is being eclipsed by computer science.  Old farts who love 3 ton Cadillac are dying. CLC, as having existed for half a century. is less relevant today. But leave us old guys/gals alone. We will die before long.

Then as I told my copilot upon retirement....."it's yours baby...take the controls."!

P.S. FIRE AWAY.   Don't blame me...I didn't vote for him anyway. And I don't see the relationship between gun lover organizations(I own 1O weapons and am an excellent shooter) and CLC GNs.  Apples and Oranges.

Bob R.

[Greg Powers]

I think that this is the Pandora's Box that won't close. We've beat this old horse to death. What started as a simple question has spiraled out of control into all manners of other discussions. For me personally if I want to see a "slammed, chopped, dropped," Cadillac I can attend any cruise in around. I come to the Grand National to view the preservation of the Standard of The World. The cars are presented and judged based upon the original delivery of the car by the Cadillac Motor Division of General Motors. Each year newer model years are included as well as recently added modified classes. I think what the point many seem to be missing is that the Grand National is really about the people first and their cars secondary. The Cadillacs and LaSalles are a common interest but its the people that really matter and make our club what it is. I've never brought one of my Cadillacs to a Grand National though I have attended and worked at many of them. At each one I've enjoyed seeing cars I haven't see before and meeting new people and making new friends.

[Lexi]

Bob good points, but I am a dinosaur as well so you are preaching to the choir. That said the dinosaurs ruled the earth for 70 million years! Being a "dinosaur" means you have lived, and been around long enough to see things the way they really are. Not necessarily a bad thing. Currently we are experiencing trends in the classic car world that are difficult to counter for a variety of reasons. Most have little to do with how the CLC is run. I as well prefer to see the Standard of the World at the Grand Nationals. I do not feel that overtly catering to the "slammed, chopped, dropped," crowd, (as Greg put it),  is the way to preserve the CLC. Analogous to such is what many antique shows did to survive (by lowering their standards), usually with disastrous results. Quality drops and a less sophisticated crowd mutates the event into something totally different. James Landy and I posted some relevant comments a while back that touched on this. I think for the Club to survive it must attract young people who we can pass the torch to. I cannot reasonably be expected to attend CLC Grand Nationals with my car due to distance, (I live in Canada), but I do my best to encourage young people to get interested in old cars. Everything also tends to cycle and right now we are on that portion of the curve where it is tough for the young to enter the old car market due to finances. Heck, many of them have trouble just to get by and may never own a house (or a garage). That aspect of the DIY'er does seem to be dying. Rising fuel costs, self driving (and electric) cars and perhaps even legislation down the road may be the final nail in the coffin of car shows and vintage vehicle collecting as we know it today. On a similar note, how many horse and buggy shows are there today?  Time, technology and legislation moved on and those from that era have since passed. The survivors are largely relegated to museums, gathering dust. Clay/Lexi

[slowpoke17]

I think that this is the Pandora's Box that won't close. We've beat this old horse to death. What started as a simple question has spiraled out of control into all manners of other discussions. For me personally if I want to see a "slammed, chopped, dropped," Cadillac I can attend any cruise in around. I come to the Grand National to view the preservation of the Standard of The World. The cars are presented and judged based upon the original delivery of the car by the Cadillac Motor Division of General Motors. Each year newer model years are included as well as recently added modified classes. I think what the point many seem to be missing is that the Grand National is really about the people first and their cars secondary. The Cadillacs and LaSalles are a common interest but its the people that really matter and make our club what it is. I've never brought one of my Cadillacs to a Grand National though I have attended and worked at many of them. At each one I've enjoyed seeing cars I haven't see before and meeting new people and making new friends.

As a fairly new member I would agree with Greg and others who prefer to keep it as is where the finest of Cadillac's are presented. I love seeing things preserved and still functioning like day one. Someone who is not into cars can come by one of the shows and see through the generations how Cadillac lead the way as the standard of the world. I don't think having modern versions with air bags, burnout contests with mobile dynos is the answer. I can see that any weekend during the summer.  Have them at a venue where you want to take your family or have enough variety for young and old. I was thinking on my drive this morning how would my area compete? I'm in a small town next to Springfield MA. We have the NBA Hall of Fame, Springfield Armory, Volleyball Hall of Fame, Sturbridge Village about an hour away, 6 Flags Theme Park in the next town, a new MGM casino opening next month with shows, fine dining etc. Something there for everyone and I'm sure there is more that I'm forgetting. Its reasonably priced as it is far enough from Boston and Hartford CT. so lodging would be affordable. Coming to these shows must be expensive every year! We had a Corvette night last Monday at one of the local cruise spots, get this 383 Corvettes made it that night to this field, 49 more than last year! They had a good band, good food and with social media lots of mention through the Corvette forums. I guess the point I'd like to make is if you make it a desirable destination they will come. Use social media, all these car restoration shows I watch don't sell one car locally it seems. People are flying in from all over because of the internet and finding their perfect car on line. I'm not tech savvy but I get it, that's how people relate now. In closing, please don't make it a car show with desperation to please everyone, it's not going to happen. 

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

I enjoyed reading the last several posts.  It seems we're
finally getting around (after 7 pages) to an important
point. 

If you have a look into the International Membership
Directory, read on page 19 in the section containing
the Club's Constitution.  It states under "Purposes":

"The purposes for which the Club is founded are:  to
encourage maintenance, preservation and restoration
pertaining to Cadillacs and LaSalles........and to promote
social fellowship among the Club members".

That's an abridged quote but you get the idea.  We're
not here to promote the entry of all types of "hot rods"
and non-Cadillac cars just to increase our membership.
If that's what you're after, then this is the wrong Club
for you.  Sorry.

Also, we're not here to become part of the "everybody
has to win a trophy" club -- since that's the feel good
idea of today's politically correct crowd.  Trophies given
in that context are meaningless -- why bother.

The Club has, as others have noted, done much over the
last 10 years to help broaden the ability of members to
bring all types of Cadillacs and LaSalles to any CLC meet.

We have a Modified Class (open to any non stock Cadillac
as long as it has a Cadillac engine), we have a Touring
Class (for those cars that are unrestored and driven), and
we also have a Preservation Class (for unrestored original
cars).

We continue to have the standard classes for those high
point cars which is relevant and always will be -- the
pursuit of excellence which is entrusted to our Club.  How
else will the history of our favorite marque be preserved
for future generations?

One last comment:  Yes, Bob R., et.al. -- I became an
Eagle Scout in 1966 and am another member of the
dinosaur generation, I'm 68.  I purchased my first
Cadillac (new) in 1973.

Mike

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Only 6K members? For "Cadillac" lovers? ...yikes...
For those of you preparing to die imminently, please don't take your cars with you, we need them to preserve the history of the Cadillac. And the ONLY way to do that is to bring more folks to our table, get them interested, and get them involved.

USPSA is not a 'gun lovers' organization. Its 32,000 members who are in turn members of 450 affiliated clubs,
in America. When I joined USPSA, my number was A6320...
USPSA is the American region of IPSC. IPSC is in over 100 countries. IPSC started in 1975 in Arizona, now its headquarters are in the Netherlands. IPSC started off as a local match, now its the 2nd largest shooting organization on Planet Earth. And it got that way being 'inclusive' and not demanding it worship solely at the altar of the 1911 which was its beginning. When I joined USPSA there were 2 divisions, "open" and "standard". You're not going to beat me and my 4K full race pistol added to the 50 hours a week I practiced and the 6 sponsors I had to off set expenses, with your daily carry model 66. And you'll get your butt kicked in 'standard' with that wheel gun too since high capacity non-race pistols were in that division as well. And that's what started the division about divisions. Now we can all shoot together at the same match, local or national, have a blast (pardon the pun) and everyone competes fairly over the same courses. Due to divisions. And a 5 fold increase in American membership is the result.

^ This model works....

For Heaven's sake no one is trying to bury the old, perfect Cadillac! Good grief! Its the center piece of any show, National or otherwise. But what about those folks with the model 66 wheel gun Caddy? Why can't they play too and have a chance at a trophy? They're paying dues too... Some can't financially afford the 4K for a full race pistol or 80-100K for a 100 point car, why can't their cars get a 'shot' (another pun, sorry) for a trophy at the National? My table fist pounding speech (which you can do if your a Master class shooter) at our Area 7 meeting (think Cadillac 'region') in an effort to get USPSA to recognize the 'new' 3 gun sport was a simple one: "We need to think of ourselves as mules, we cannot reproduce. So we have to recruit if we are to expand and grow as an organization. We can only recruit if we offer something to those who aren't totally committed to the pistol. With 3 gun competitions, we draw the action shotgunners and the action rifle shooters." NOW, USPSA has a 3-Gun Nationals, and IPSC has a world 3-gun championship. And there was a TON of resistance to this bastardization of USPSA by having the gall to insist shotguns and rifles would be welcome under our tent... And they've added multiple rifle and shotgun stand alone events, and divisions.

^ Seriously, this model works.

Lexi horse and carriage, or "driving" events are quite popular here. Its a USEF accredited event, the ADS has almost 100 meets a year around the country. Its not dressage level popular, but it has a solid base. Let's equate horses along with the shooting sports to the Cadillac thing: I went to the Quarter Horse Nationals, twice. And as a PURIST with the Quarter Horse it just shucked my corn to see a 'cow pony' doing stadium jumping at the Nationals. Looking back, what a petulant attitude on my part. It WAS a Quarter Horse, owned, loved and proudly shown by another AQHA member.

6,000 members? Really?
We need more members... now.
You cannot reproduce them, you have to recruit them.
You will recruit them by giving them a place at the table.
That table must include divisions for judging cars from all walks of life.
Or there will be no one to care about the old Cadillac... at all.
What happens to those old stellar cars then?

This isn't "dumbing down" the organization at all. We're not making it 'easier' to win.
We're simply giving more opportunity to others to get involved on a level they can afford/enjoy.

\m/
Laurie

[Vince Taliano #13852]

6,000 members? Really?
We need more members... now.
You cannot reproduce them, you have to recruit them.
You will recruit them by giving them a place at the table.
That table must include divisions for judging cars from all walks of life.
Or there will be no one to care about the old Cadillac... at all.
What happens to those old stellar cars then?

\m/
Laurie

Laurie,

I have enjoyed reading your perspective on the club and the hobby in general.  I suggest you contact John Houlsby, Chair, CLC Membership & Public Relations Committee.  He is leading the recruitment campaign, which includes Facebook marketing.  He is also the Director of the South Florida Region, so his contact info is listed at  https://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/page/regions_chapters.

Thanks.

Vince

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

I'll take these point by point, and Mike is a dear friend...

I enjoyed reading the last several posts.  It seems we're
finally getting around (after 7 pages) to an important
point. 

If you have a look into the International Membership
Directory, read on page 19 in the section containing
the Club's Constitution.  It states under "Purposes":

"The purposes for which the Club is founded are:  to
encourage maintenance, preservation and restoration
pertaining to Cadillacs and LaSalles........and to promote
social fellowship among the Club members".

Am I correct, the CLC was established in 1958... 24 states still had laws
prohibiting interracial marriage. I see nothing in the above that demands
preservation and restoration be to factory spec. Those that are bagging
and putting bucket seats into 69 coupes 'are' preserving them and restoring
them. And I'm on record as not being a fan of that type of mod, but, to each
their own. I'd rather see that than see the car rusting in a field. And Lord knows
I'm doing my best to preserve and restore my car, even though I'm using worm clamps
and parts from Autozone.... 

That's an abridged quote but you get the idea.  We're
not here to promote the entry of all types of "hot rods"
and non-Cadillac cars just to increase our membership.
If that's what you're after, then this is the wrong Club
for you.  Sorry.

The Cadillac hotrods belong in their own class, not sure where anyone
championed non-Cadillacs being included for a Cadillac event.
If the data plate says its a Cadillac, its a Cadillac. And that car
and its owner should be welcomed and given the opportunity to compete
at any event.

Also, we're not here to become part of the "everybody
has to win a trophy" club -- since that's the feel good
idea of today's politically correct crowd.  Trophies given
in that context are meaningless -- why bother.

Nobody 'has' to win a trophy. Nobody has to join the club either.
Give a dwindling membership a 'reason' to take their car to the Nationals,
even the playing field, adjust to the current market.
Dangle more carrots, get more bunnies!

The Club has, as others have noted, done much over the
last 10 years to help broaden the ability of members to
bring all types of Cadillacs and LaSalles to any CLC meet.

This should be easy for someone at HQ - How many members were there on June 29, 2008?
If less than 6000, those changes are helping. The bigger question is how many members will
there be on June 29, 2028...

We have a Modified Class (open to any non stock Cadillac
as long as it has a Cadillac engine), we have a Touring
Class (for those cars that are unrestored and driven), and
we also have a Preservation Class (for unrestored original
cars).

So, where does a 1970 fleetwood with the current bubbling Earl Schieb paint job in Behr Turquoise, horrible roof, new period correct look-a-like radials, worm clamps and either a DieHard or period correct battery compete fairly and with a chance? Asking for a friend. 

We continue to have the standard classes for those high
point cars which is relevant and always will be -- the
pursuit of excellence which is entrusted to our Club.  How
else will the history of our favorite marque be preserved
for future generations?

Couldn't agree more Mike. God Bless those who are willing, physically and financially to keep history alive
and rolling!

But without GROWTH, there won't be a future generation to worry about...
then what happens to those cars?

\m/
Laurie

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Laurie,

I have enjoyed reading your perspective on the club and the hobby in general.  I suggest you contact John Houlsby, Chair, CLC Membership & Public Relations Committee.  He is leading the recruitment campaign, which includes Facebook marketing.  He is also the Director of the South Florida Region, so his contact info is listed at  https://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/page/regions_chapters.

Thanks.

Vince

Thanks Vince, I will! Any chance he's here on this forum? I've "liked" the CLC page on FB, not much chatter from them...

\m/
Laurie

[Glen]

In my neck of the woods the common thing to do with old cars is to strip out the drive train and put in a small block with 700R4 tranny.  Sometimes they cut the front of the frame off to install modern suspension and rack and pinon steering.  Sometimes they just put the body on a newer frame.  The interior comes from a modern car too.  Of course, it also has to have wagon wheels. 

How is that “preserving” the car?  But all that is not about the car it’s about looking cool going down the road.  They don’t want to be bothered with all that old stuff.  While I know that there was a lot of work that went into that, I think it is much more respectful of the car to try to learn how to fix the original parts and keep it running the way it was built.   

When I was a Boy Scout any scout that earned the Eagle rank was written up in the newspapers.  And they earned it, they did all the work, selecting a project, planning and organizing it, and the adults were there to only guide the Scout.  In my volunteer work I have been involved with three Eagle projects.   No more.  The last one the fathers did all the work while the Scouts fiddled with their phones.  Plus, they did not return the tools I loaned them.  The Scout made Eagle anyway.  In this kinder and gentler world, he can’t be shamed by refusing to advance him.  I’m not a fan of participation awards, just being at the GN is more valuable than any award they could give me.  I can’t see giving out trophies just to get people to come.  Nor can I see recruiting people that have totally different thinking about the cars we love.  That’s kind of like the gun club recruiting people that want to ban guns.   

The Grand National is the clubs top event and as such the top awards should go to the person that went the extra mile to make his/her car the most original.  The one that took the time to find the correct hose clamp (since that seems to be a point of concern) and made it work as the originals did.  The owner that totes a spare set of wheels with bias ply tires to put on the car when it gets to the show field.  Or spends the extra bucks to get the correct material for the seats.  Those are the ones that should get the award. 

For the lesser awards that is for the regions to do.  They should be the ones that bring in the new people.  They can be more relaxed in the judging.   
The regions, with the support of the national should be working on teaching the younger generation the ins and outs of the old cars so they can work on them, or at least talk to the mechanic.    Once we spread the knowledge they will be more likely to carry on the traditions of this club. 

IIRC when the CLC started it was for the 1941 Cadillacs.  Other years need not apply.  But as you can see it has grown to include all Cadillacs.   

[gkhashem]

This thread is devolving into an abyss. If you want a modified Cadillac Club start one.

Why is it in today's America if someone is having a good time, someone wants to infiltrate the group and change it? It seems like if someone else is enjoying themselves others want to make it more inclusive? Which in the end makes the group meaningless. Waters it down and makes it boring.

Yikes I am 58 and yes a dinosaur if that's what I am. Someone in a prior thread posted the CLC mission, well that's what the CLC is striving for. If you don't like it you can do 2 things. Take the CLC over in a mutiny or join another club.

If you take it over, I leave. Why do people have the need to crash a party and ruin other people's fun. Start your own party. I would.

Plus many of us enjoy preserving a car as it was built. I do not have a closed mind if I would like to get the correct tower clamp on the car. Maybe I respect automotive history and enjoy preserving a car as it was built. So future generations can also see how things were. Not how others pretend they were.

You have heard of fake news, well there is fake history too. I admire a car that has survived for 50, 60 or more years as is. I love it when I have the original owners paperwork. This is part of the story of the car, a partial story of the original owners life. It shows the love the car received, and I feel I have a responsibility to do the same. Not bag and chop it. Now if the car is a heap and needs total restoration I say do whatever you want. But if you do that to a nice original car you should be jailed for crimes against automotive history. 

[Lexi]

Laurie I was referring to antique horse drawn rides. I did not say that shows that may comprise of at least some of these vintage objects do not exist, (though I have never seen one up in these parts). I was attempting to make a point by using an analogy. That is how analogies are made. The point is to stick with the 'meat of the subject' and not permit the exception to the case, that may exist, to interfere with making the point. I stated they were "largely" relegated to museums. Guess I am a real dinosaur as I would love to attend a show with antique horse and buggies and see vintage rides 100 - 150 years old still in use.

I think we can all agree that we have to get young people involved to keep interest in our vintage cars alive. What is slowly happening to the vintage car world is a predictable evolution largely drawn by technological change and culture shifts. How to resist such may indeed by akin to 'spitting in the wind', so to speak. I cannot stress enough that other forms of collecting have experienced this shift, and changes made to accommodating such at antique shows for example, have often, if not largely (at least up here), been disastrous as previously stated. In contrast to other established forms of collecting, our "hobby" is still young and developing. Many mistakes are being made that other areas of art collecting experienced a century or more ago (but grew out of). My point is, not only are we experiencing this culture & technological shift but it is happening at a time when the classic car as art is still evolving. It is still relatively new.

Some of the things that people do to old cars would NO LONGER happen in the fine art world, (there are parallels). I can understand why some members are not supportive of chopped, customized rides, just like I would not admire a Duncan Phyfe chair with it's legs cut off. I would say if someone is saving a POS that otherwise would be scrap...great. At least it is saved. What some can do to totally customize a car is amazing and may well be best classed as a form of abstract art, (though done at the expense of another piece of art-a vehicle).

In my opinion paying homage to such is not going to solve the greater problems that are now beginning to face the classic car community. "Watering down" the Grand Nationals by catering to a yet more diverse subset of Cadillacs is at best a band-aid which does not address the reasons why these changes are occurring. I don't know what the answer is; indeed there may not be one   Clay/Lexi \m/

[slowpoke17]

We need to face facts, interest in old cars is waning and it's a very expensive, time consuming hobby to which we can all attest to. My brother in law is a member of the Bay State Antique Auto Club and they are facing the same issues. Unlike CLC they are open to all marques and many different classes of cars. They are trying to get more youth involved with high school presentations and soliciting more volunteers from the community to help with their big car shows. Members provided some training while working on non-running cars to help promote the club.

Maybe the solution is to put out a survey to "all" members and see what it would take to attend a GN or help increase membership. Personally I think most of the concerns center around the cost; participation fees, towing costs, gas or airfare, lodging etc. People seem to be more frugal on how they spend what little disposable income they have now a days. Especially when you think the average age of membership is creeping more toward the retirement stage and fixed incomes is a factor. I hopefully will attend a GN one day but due to financial and family health issues it will need to be near my backyard.

On the topic of a new class; even if you were to create this new class for the modified cars, are there really that many hopped up Cadillac's out there with owners looking for our advice? How many of us know how to install lambo doors or how many compressors these 3 ton beasts need to hop down the road? I'm glad old cars in general are being saved in one manner or another, I just don't think this club is an appropriate venue for that.

[35-709]

"On the topic of a new class; even if you were to create this new class for the modified cars, are there really that many hopped up Cadillac's out there with owners looking for our advice? How many of us know how to install lambo doors or how many compressors these 3 ton beasts need to hop down the road? I'm glad old cars in general are being saved in one manner or another, I just don't think this club is an appropriate venue for that."

The Modified class(es) already exist and have since the Washington GN in 2017.  My '35 took second in Modified class M2 at the Washington GN ---     without Lambo doors, blower(s), or hopping down the road.