Point deduction for disc brakes?

[BlackCads]

I am planning to install front disc brakes on my 65 Sedan de Ville. If I ever entered the car for judging at a GN (Touring) what would the point deduction be for this modification?
Thank you.

[cadillacmike68]

Who knows?

Some might refer to it as a "safety" upgrade, like seat belts, while others might consider it akin to radial tires, or something in between, like stainless steel worm drive hose clamps.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Mike is on a roll today... (With tongue firmly in cheek.)

For touring, you'd have to have a pretty harsh bunch of judges to deduct one point for each wheel. I'd say one point (if at all.) If you have family that rides in the car, I'd put them on and let the chips land where they may.

[Jon S]

I thought judging was based on how the car left the factory. Even Dealer installed options were questionable???

[Dave Shepherd]

Lotta trivial crap, so we should trailer the car rather than have safety add-ons!?

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

One thing is for certain, Cadillac did not even offer
front disc brakes until 1967 -- as an option on the
Eldorado.

So -- if judges "look the other way" for this deviation
for safety, where does it stop?  And if they do, how
do they handle the deduction issue for another "safety
option" in that class they are judging?  Some people
say they want radial tires for "safety reasons" -- and
on and on.

Allowing this would open up a large can of worms.
It's a deduction, up to Bill Anderson as to number of
points.

Mike

[gkhashem]

Lotta trivial crap, so we should trailer the car rather than have safety add-ons!?

Don't enter the car for judging.

Did you buy the car to have it the way you want or to win a trophy?

I have drum brakes on my car and the car stops. So what is the big deal? Just drive alertly and 95% of the time you should be fine.

At this point I personally am getting fed up with all the sniping and whining from people on the judging. If you don't want to play the game don't play. You do not get to make the rules by yourself!

No one is forcing you, so why do you want to crash the party?

Now the best response is who is going to know if the can fit them on using with the same hub caps. I have never converted so I do not know so educate me.

If you cannot then you lose a point or two. That few points on a #2 car or better will not probably cost you a placing at the GN. But if you insist on modifying 10 items then it most likely will matter.

[cadillacmike68]

Don't enter the car for judging.

Did you buy the car to have it the way you want or to win a trophy?

I have drum brakes on my car and the car stops. So what is the big deal? Just drive alertly and 95% of the time you should be fine.

At this point I personally am getting fed up with all the sniping and whining from people on the judging. If you don't want to play the game don't play. You do not get to make the rules by yourself!

No one is forcing you, so why do you want to crash the party?

Now the best response is who is going to know if the can fit them on using with the same hub caps. I have never converted so I do not know so educate me.

If you cannot then you lose a point or two. That few points on a #2 car or better will not probably cost you a placing at the GN. But if you insist on modifying 10 items then it most likely will matter.

What about the other 5% ??

Personally I believe this, radial tires and seat belts should ALL be treated the same.

As to fitment. The steering knuckles were the same from about 1961 thru 1969, so what would be needed is the disc brake backing plate, dust shield (not really, but...),  calipers and rotors. The 1964 wheels will likely NOT clear the calipers, and if you use 1966-67-68, etc wheels, your 1964 wheelcovers will NOT fit, so you are in a bit of a quandary. But yes, you can fit Cadillac front discs from 1968-69 to a 1964.

[gkhashem]

Personally has nothing to do with it.  Make your issue known at a CLC judging meeting or forward your suggestions to someone who can change them. Unless you do that what you say here makes no difference.

But all this stuff about safety this and safety that is a fig leaf.  Used to change the rules to suit certain people. Change the rules the proper way if you want to try.

Yes it is safer, but just drive a bit defensively and alert. You should live. They way some guys talk here everyone who got into a car built before 1972 should be dead. Last time I looked, most people who experienced driving a pre-1972 auto survived it. Also how often do drive your car? If you drive it everyday then change it, but if you drive it everyday maybe it should not be entered for judging.

If you are so worried about safety, change all you want or maybe just drive a tank.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

No points deducted in the "cruiser class" at the 2060 GN....

Can I get that rum'n coke delivered to my corner Eric?

\m/
Laurie

[jdemerson]

There's more uniformity in CLC GN Judging than some of the comments here seem to suggest. For example, here is what the CLC Judging Guidelines say about exceptions to authenticity for safety reasons:
Safety Allowancesâ€"No points will
be deducted for:
•• Seat belts and shoulder harness
if not originally equipped; they
should be installed to mimic
factory practice
•• Dual-reservoir master cylinders,
if not originally equipped; they
should be installed in the same
location as the original singlereservoir
master cylinder
consistent with a factory
installation
•• Turn signals, if not originally
equipped. Ideally, existing lights
will be rewired to accept doublecontact
bulbs. If auxiliary lights are
used, they must be similar to those
available in the same period as the
year of the car.
•• Second taillight, matching the
original, if not originally equipped
•• Centered, high-mounted
stoplights
•• Driving aids for handicapped
persons if needed by the owner

As far as I know, points are deducted (Authenticy) for adding disc brakes where they were not available originally. The number of points deducted would be 2, but I can't tell from the judging form whether that is two per disc or two in total.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac 6219X

[Dave Shepherd]

Seems reasonable, the knuckle head summer drivers where I live create some scary conditions, no matter how careful you drive, authenticity becomes secondary.

[Scot Minesinger]

OK throwing my two cents in:

First, reconsider disk brakes on a 1965 Cadillac.  Often brake systems in poor repair are blamed on drum brakes.  I have three 1970 Cadillacs all equipped with disk brakes.  I'm working on a 1965 SDV and the complaint was bad brakes.  The master cylinder was clogged with debris after years of low usage and no maintenance.  I cleaned it out, replaced the brake fluid and bled all the lines - car stops beautifully now.

Comparing a 1965 Cadillac and a 1970, they seem to stop about equally in terms of the breaks slowing down the car and either is capable of locking up the tires instantly if pressed too much.  The disk brake difference is that the breaking power remains stronger on disks over drums during repeated panic stops (which does not happen in classic car driving), and the disks are a little smoother than drums out of adjustment.  Bottom line I would not make this change, unless you are sure the 1965 breaks are in good repair and you have driven a similar equipped disk break car and feel it is superior.

Second, yes best to sit out the judging f you do not like the rules.  I'm an idealist with some practical abilities.  While I detest the judging rules especially when it comes to radial tires and lack of respect for original cars (i.e. a 9 out of 10 original paint job on a 50 year old Caddy has to be repainted to win top awards).  I give up trying to get the rules changed.  For me the answer is just enjoy the car, forgo the huge opportunity to win a $10 plaque, and enter it on the GN show field as display only.  Given the recent shortage of GN cars participating, you will be welcomed with open arms as a display car if you register on time.

The easiest answer to the judging rules is just offer a peoples choice award by class and only the people that brought a car get to vote.  A slip of paper can be given out as the award (to be framed by car owner), that way very low expense.  My most coveted award was in Ohio GN around 2010 or so when I won the youth choice award for best post war at the entire show - the lure of a red convertible remains high in the hearts of the young.

The goal of the club is to preserve the mark, and so I guess these judging rules best accomplish this goal.  If membership is ever factored in, the club will need to be kinder to people that want to bring a Cadillac to the show.  As an example Chris brought a 1970 Cadillac to the TX GN (failed to enter it on time) and the show field was sparsly populated with show cars.  They made him park over by the vendors and not on the main show field which easily could have accommodated another 100 cars.  Fortunately Chris is a good sport and complied, but he should have been accommodated in my opinion.  Not everyone has as thick of skin as Chris.  Twenty years ago the club could afford to be this way, but not much longer.  Tings change!

[Jon S]

Standard

The standard against which all automobiles in the Primary Division and the Specialty and Unique Division will be judged is that condition, appearance, and equipment as the car was originally delivered to the first owner considering authenticity, condition, operability, and cleanliness of all components. Any accessory approved by Cadillac, either installed at the factory or by a dealer, is acceptable.

If you add "approved by Cadillac for the specific year of the car" that makes sense.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

How much longer are we going to have these useless slug-fests here? Take it up with the board, the chief judge or any appropriate CLC officer. Complaining/debating among ourselves here isn't going to accomplish a damn thing. Enough already!


*For the record, all 4-wheel drum brake cars that I have owned have a 100% perfect track record for slowing/stopping as needed over a combined mileage accumulation of at least 100,000 miles over the last 28 years.

[Scot Minesinger]

Dealer installed accessories are not always cart blanche to avoid deductions.  I would have a difficult time not deducting points from an under dash ac unit dealer installed on a 1965 Cadillac.  A dealer installed push button trunk release on a 1970 Cadillac - no problem.  Dealers did install rocker moldings on the 1967-70 DVC because the Eldorado as a convertible was no longer available.  These are installed on my car and it is always a deduction.  I think Cadillac factory accessories added after delivered to the dealer are OK, but non-factory dealer added accessories are not.  OK to add electronic ignition on a 1974 Cadillac (an option), not OK (with distributor cap mounted coil) added by dealer on a 1973 Cadillac as another example.

[Scot Minesinger]

It is a free Country and we are permitted to discuss things even though it may not accomplish anything.  Most conversations do not attain a goal, but do provide enjoyment and good mental health.  Obviously private conversations about rules we do not agree with that are not shared with the board fail to change the rules.  It is OK to discuss things for the fun of it.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

... for the fun of it.

I must've been missing the fun parts...

Frankly my view is these discussions do little more than stir up the things that divide, rather than unite, as Cadillac & La Salle enthusiasts. This so-called "free speech" though it may be, is corrosive, toxic and detrimental to the mission of the CLC, in my view.

I also find it difficult to understand the hyper-fixation on such trivial matters in the greater scheme of things. If someone wants discs on a drum car, that's their decision. Either they want points or they want the car to stop a little quicker. Same for a zillion other points - we could be here doing this for eternity. And after all this bickering, what good does it accomplish? Nothing.

Speaking for myself, I have wider type (61 style) WW on my '62 CdV because to my eyes the appearance if the car is improved over the correct 1" (or 1.3" depending on who you ask) style WW for '62 and am perfectly fine accepting the appropriate deductions. It's a question of accepting responsibility for the choices we make arising therefrom. And just as I do not expect the rules to be rewritten to accommodate me, the same terms should apply to anybody else. That's where I stand.

[35-709]

To Eric D ---
Re: Reply #15 and Reply #18 in this thread --- fully agree and well said.  Although maybe some education as to what the rules REALLY say has come out of this interminable thread.

[Scot Minesinger]

Reading your opinions Eric is fun.  Like learning about your opinion on WW's.  Discovering what others think is fun.  When people disagree with me that generally remains fun.  It is well understood that the rules are not going to change as a result of this and/or other posts.  My taxes are not going to be lowered if discussed with friends.  If threads like this and conversations were limited to only ones that actually changed a law or rule, then this forum would be very dull as a result of almost no entrees and way less interesting.

My basic premise is that the marque will be better preserved via driving small amounts each year as these cars were designed to do, and disuse is a deteriorating factor.  To drive them, certain reliability and safety factors that do not detract should be allowed, such as but not limited to radial tires and st st worm gear hose clamps.  The award winning cars that are the most interesting (1970 and older) are generally trailer queens which saps all of the fun out of our hobby for me.  If you see my car on a trailer please call the police it has been stolen.