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Dies while idling and losing fuel from the fuel bowl

Started by VooDoo, March 12, 2023, 12:56:55 AM

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Paul

Andy, if you are concerned with the look of the engine bay, that is certainly a valid concern.
I don't know of a fuel bowl (filter) for your car that supports a fuel vapor return line to the tank. There might be a version out there I am not aware of however.  An alternate solution would be to install a small electric fuel pump outside of the engine compartment on the fuel line from the tank. You would install an on/off switch in an inconspicuous place in the cab and use the electric pump when needed. This solution maintains the original look but will provide you with a solution to vapor lock.  Also, heat shielding may help keep the fuel lines cool enough to avoid vapor lock; belt and suspenders, so to speak.
59 Caddy, Seminole Red with Dover White top

VooDoo

#21
Quote from: Paul on March 15, 2023, 01:46:03 PMAndy, if you are concerned with the look of the engine bay, that is certainly a valid concern.
I don't know of a fuel bowl (filter) for your car that supports a fuel vapor return line to the tank. There might be a version out there I am not aware of however.  An alternate solution would be to install a small electric fuel pump outside of the engine compartment on the fuel line from the tank. You would install an on/off switch in an inconspicuous place in the cab and use the electric pump when needed. This solution maintains the original look but will provide you with a solution to vapor lock.  Also, heat shielding may help keep the fuel lines cool enough to avoid vapor lock; belt and suspenders, so to speak.

I actually do have an electric fuel pump that was installed by the previous owner. I figured out the other day that I can throw that switch. Turn it on when I'm idling and it solve the vapor lock. If I use this as a solution I just have to be aware That if I feel any thing funky in the idle, I need to throw the switch.  Kind of inconvenient to have to throw the switch, so I'll insulate the lines running from the fuel pump to the carburetor and see if that helps. As well. I read some thing about switching to a higher octane fuel because it has less alcohol in it? I'm out here in California, so I know gas  gets a bunch of additives and stuff in it especially during winter not sure if that plays a role or not
Andy Fulenwider
1937 75 Series Convertible
1947 62 Series Custom Project

Chopper1942

Think of it like this: the ethlyene glycol has a higher boiling point than H2O. By mixing EG with H2O you lower the boiling point of the EG. H2O latent heat is much lower than EG so it gives up the heat easier. The stronger the mix the higher the boiling point of the mixture, but the engine can technically overheat because the heat is not given up by the stronger mixture.  The mixture under pressure raises the the boiling point of the water in the mixture. For each 1 pound of pressure increase over barometeric, the boiling point of H2O is raised 3 degrees.  Therefore, a #3 cap raises the boiling point of water to 221 degrees at sea level.  Today the radiator cap can be as high #22 and normal operating temps from 220-230 degrees. 

Back to your '37.  Do you live in cold climate- temps below freezing?  If so, do you drive in freezing temps or store the car in a freezing enviroment?  If you do, then a 50/50 mix is needed in the winter.  Otherwise, I would run distilled H2O.  Now then, just water in the system will lead to corrosion in the cooling system. When I lived in AZ, I found that many of the irrigation pump engines only ran water in the cooling systems.  They would run a pressure cap appropriate for the integrity of the radiator.  Too much pressure and you will damage the radiator.  To prevent corrosion in the engines, they used an additive.  Wix had an additive for diesel engines that prevented corrosion and prevented cavitation bubbles from damaging the cylinder sleeves.  I believe that the best option is to run water with an additive and a higher pressure cap.  For a thermostat, 180 is probably the best.  It will be hot enough to get rid of fuel and H2O in the oil. 

When I first started as a technician, when we would winterize a car, your choice was either glycol or alcohol.  Alcohol lowers the freezing point of H2O. We had a special hydrometer that had 2 floats. One side for EG and the other for the alcohol mix.  EG was very expensive then and alcohol was much cheaper.  The draw back to alcohol is its boiling point is much lower than water (173 degres), so you had to run a 160 thermostat to keep from boiling off the alcohol.  Not much heat from the heater at 0.  You also had to constantly check the coolant mix.  When you shut the engine off, even with a 160 stat, the heads, block, etc. are hot enough to boil the alcohol, because most pressure caps used at that time were 3-5 lbs.

I was born and raised in a small midwest town with a very prestigeous small liberal arts college. I had just started  working at a Cadillac-Oldsmobile-Chevrolet dealership. One fall day after a hard freeze, a college student from Chicago brought in his college car that his dad gave him.  It was his Grandfather's car that his dad had inherited.  The tanks were broken because the alcohol had evaporated out and it had no freeze protection. 

Don't cry.  It was a beautiful '34 Cadillac four door what I would call a phaeton.  Even then, it took a long time to find a replacement for him.  I install EG in it (his daddy could afford it)so it wouldn't freeze up and break the heads or block.

About the fuel vaporizing, get an inline filter with a return fitting.  Remove the OE line and make a new line to hide the filter behind the air cleaner, run the return line back to the tank and tie it into either the tank vent hose or the fill hosel

I know this was kinda windy but I hope it helps.

Chopper1942

I was writing a response and went to lunch when you responded about the electric fuel pump. Check its fuel pressure.  Make sure it isn't too much above the OE pressure.  If so, it could cause the engine to flood.  A fuel filter with a return would stop that if it happens.

VooDoo

Definitely a wealth of knowledge... Thanks for the education.
Andy Fulenwider
1937 75 Series Convertible
1947 62 Series Custom Project

Poncholover

Skinny & Paul have it right. Fuel bubbles = boiling fuel. Cooling the fuel will help, a fuel return line will aid in doing this. Race or Av gas will help too.
Flattie Caddy

VooDoo

Quote from: Poncholover on March 16, 2023, 08:38:19 PMSkinny & Paul have it right. Fuel bubbles = boiling fuel. Cooling the fuel will help, a fuel return line will aid in doing this. Race or Av gas will help too.

Gotcha. Not quite sure where I can find race gas and don't know what a V gas is does that mean a higher octane fuel like 91 as opposed to 87 or is there a way to find alcohol, free gas?
Andy Fulenwider
1937 75 Series Convertible
1947 62 Series Custom Project

35-709

AV gas, short for aviation gas, it still contains lead and because it does it is illegal to use in an automobile.  If you can find it in your area, the best solution (IMO) is to use non-ethanol gas, also called "boat gas", as ethanol laced fuel will actually attack and ruin fiberglass gas tanks and is not good for many marine engines.  I use nothing but non-ethanol fuel in my older (without fuel injection) vehicles unless I am on a trip and am forced to use ethanol laced fuel.  Many stations carry non-ethanol these days and can be found at --- www.pure-gas.org 
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Chopper1942

Most state still have straight unleaded fuel.  A lot of lawn & garden, power equipment, etc. can not use ethanol blended fuels because it is detrimental to diaphragms, fuel lines, gaskets, and plastics use in their fuel systems.
 
I don't know the price of leaded aviation gas, but Sunoco Race gas is about $675.00 for 54 gals. The cheapest way to go is to use Regular Unleaded gas, if available, and add Red Line Lead Substitute 60202 at $16.00 a bottle at Summit Racing.  It treats 25 gal of fuel.  Technically it is not to be used on road, but who will know.  It will also save your exhaust valves.

VooDoo

Quote from: Chopper1942 on March 19, 2023, 09:16:34 PMMost state still have straight unleaded fuel.  A lot of lawn & garden, power equipment, etc. can not use ethanol blended fuels because it is detrimental to diaphragms, fuel lines, gaskets, and plastics use in their fuel systems.
 
I don't know the price of leaded aviation gas, but Sunoco Race gas is about $675.00 for 54 gals. The cheapest way to go is to use Regular Unleaded gas, if available, and add Red Line Lead Substitute 60202 at $16.00 a bottle at Summit Racing.  It treats 25 gal of fuel.  Technically it is not to be used on road, but who will know.  It will also save your exhaust valves.
I'm out in California and there's no alcohol free gas anywhere close to me. A V fuel seems very expensive. If that's the case, the additive you mention to regular unleaded fuel could be a good option. How will adding a lead additive to normal gas help with vapor lock?
Andy Fulenwider
1937 75 Series Convertible
1947 62 Series Custom Project

Chopper1942

I don't know if it has any affect on the reid vapor pressure.  I would call Redline and talk to a tech.

Here is a link to white paper that explains a little about it.  https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/Lead_Substitute__Tech_6.20_.pdf.

Red Line Synthetic Oil is open for business Monday through Friday, 7:00 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. PST.

Red Line Synthetic Oil
6100 Egret Court Benicia, CA 94510
Phone: (707) 745-6100 or (800) 624-7958
Fax: (707) 745-3214

Hope this helps.

V63

Since you are in a mild climate I will advocate for blocking the exhaust heating the carburetor feature. This can be done by separating the manifold and cutting a piece of stainless steel sheeting so to cover (block) all the heat passages surrounding the intake manifold.63EB320F-5A0C-48A9-B2DA-030EA9147C64.jpeg

V63

This is why the paint burns off the center of the intake manifold, the hot exhaust is BURNING it off, scorches it...eliminating this extreme  heat under your carburetor will go a long way in resolving your problem. 1CB40B3D-575B-4300-BB3F-2C8505D9BD7D.jpeg

VooDoo

Quote from: V63 on March 19, 2023, 10:10:54 PMThis is why the paint burns off the center of the intake manifold, the hot exhaust is BURNING it off, scorches it...eliminating this extreme  heat under your carburetor will go a long way in resolving your problem. 1CB40B3D-575B-4300-BB3F-2C8505D9BD7D.jpeg
That's very interesting. I never realized that. Blocking it off has zero effect on how it runs etc.? I mean I'm sure it was there for a reason originally so just trying to understand how all those things work. I'm still learning quite a bit.
Andy Fulenwider
1937 75 Series Convertible
1947 62 Series Custom Project

V63

I reside in Arizona and it's now a routine for me since these alcohol 🤬 related issues.
Olsons gaskets actually is making pre stamped versions the demand is increasing as people realize realistic solutions.
 I am blocking off my 1961 Chevrolet truck heat source (261 L6) as we speak.
The intake manifold will still get heated by osmosis to some degree, but not the nuclear heat it was getting.

We need to remember that driving demands were very much different, very short trips and also the focus was on extreme freezing  cold conditions rather than warm tempered conditions. The exhaust would certainly heat up very quickly and was greatly appreciated in -10F . There was no alcohol blended fuels to engineer around either.

Chopper1942

The exhaust passage in the intake manifold is there to help vaporize the fuel.  Any droplets of fuel are instantly vaporized when they hit the hot manifold below the carb.  Most application also utilize a heat riser valve to direct all the exhaust from going out the exhaust pipe to crossing over to the opposite bank, which heats the intake manifold.

The only detrimental issue is cold start and driving.  In cold weather, it will hesitate, may backfire, or die when you step on the throttle.  It will probably require choke application for a longer period of time.  Once warm, it should run just fine. 

I'm not familiar with the engine in your car.  Check the exhaust on both sides of the engine for a heat riser valve.  If it is stuck shut, it can cause a lot of driveability issues when the engine is at operating temperature: hesitation, stalling, vapor lock, and boiling the fuel out of the carb.  GM has a product that used to be called Heat Trap Lube and now is just their penetrating oil.  It is a penatrating oil with graphite.  It works great to free up and lube heat risers and other parts.  If your engine has a stuck heat riser and you can't free it up, take it out and cut out the valve, but leave the shaft.