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69 deville wiring mystery…HELP!

Started by jcat, May 22, 2023, 08:21:21 PM

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jcat

So I'll start with the problem condition. Car does not charge above 12.9ish and gen light stays on.

The car has what looks like an antiquated alarm setup with a key cylinder in the fender. From there it's got a wire running up to what looks like a two post breaker or relay on the firewall. The other post I'm pretty sure runs to battery positive.

I replaced the voltage regulator with a new one when I noticed no charging. Shortly after I noticed it charging for a bit at 14v, then back to 12.7 a day later. The car will sit there and idle happily as long as I want it to and stay up around 12-12.5 volts. Tonight I noticed the gen light goes away if I give it some gas, and pulses a bit at idle.

I have the wiring diagrams, and noticed an oddity. There was a small gauge wire running between the battery positive and the red wire on the regulator. Looked to have been spliced and is in rough shape. I also have no wire between the alternator post and the battery.

I clipped that extra wire between battery and vr and the vr started buzzing pretty good, even smoking a bit at one point. At that point I shut it down for the night.

So I guess my question is, why would a wire have been run to put battery voltage on the red wire to the reg, when that's supposed to tie to the alternator post via a fusible link?

Do I bother ripping this all out and rewiring to factory or just suck it up and convert to an internally regulated alternator, and abandon the unused wires? Does anyone make a harness to sort this all out as simply as possible?

Diagram I'm working off of:

ABE817C4-5BC8-40CE-B357-7392F3EAE9BB.jpeg


Next issue-

I've got no headlights, wipers, power windows, locks, or radio. I do have tail, brake, park and signals. Window motors are fine, I jumped them to 12v and they work well. The master switch tested ok for continuity, and I replaced the 7.5a fuse that goes to the window relay, the other fuses do not appear to be blown. I have not replaced the circuit breaker yet, but my meter did show voltage on both sides, not sure if that means anything.
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

TJ Hopland

In the diagram I can see the 3 fusible links coming off the starter.  Without seeing the rest of the diagram I am just assuming that was what they were doing in the 70's.   One of those 3 feeds the headlight switch for just the headlights.  One feeds the fuse box for the stuff that is always on.  The last one feeds the key which then feeds the rest of the fuse box for the stuff that comes on with the key.  Maybe thinking about it that way will point to a link that is bad?   We have had a couple cases here where people had done some pretty sketchy stuff to work around a blown link wire.

Seems like a good theory that they key switch was some sort of alarm.  Just 2 terminals would just about have to be a breaker,  a relay would usually have at least 3 plus a case ground.  It does seem strange that your wire between the gen/regulator and battery seems to be missing.  Really starts pointing to maybe blown link wires at some point that someone was trying to work around without having any clue how it was supposed to work. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192

Does it have a generator or an alternator? If it's a generator did you re-polarise it when you replaced the regulator?

jcat

#3
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 22, 2023, 11:56:09 PMIn the diagram I can see the 3 fusible links coming off the starter.  Without seeing the rest of the diagram I am just assuming that was what they were doing in the 70's.   One of those 3 feeds the headlight switch for just the headlights.  One feeds the fuse box for the stuff that is always on.  The last one feeds the key which then feeds the rest of the fuse box for the stuff that comes on with the key.  Maybe thinking about it that way will point to a link that is bad?   We have had a couple cases here where people had done some pretty sketchy stuff to work around a blown link wire.

Seems like a good theory that they key switch was some sort of alarm.  Just 2 terminals would just about have to be a breaker,  a relay would usually have at least 3 plus a case ground.  It does seem strange that your wire between the gen/regulator and battery seems to be missing.  Really starts pointing to maybe blown link wires at some point that someone was trying to work around without having any clue how it was supposed to work. 

That's a good theory.  I'll have to follow those link wires on the diagram when i get home later.  I have a feeling I'm going to have to just re-do all that wiring between the alt/batt/starter from scratch according to the diagram so I don't have to worry about it anymore.  Come to think of it no power antenna either, but i haven't tried jumping that to 12v yet.

Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on May 23, 2023, 01:30:42 AMDoes it have a generator or an alternator? If it's a generator did you re-polarise it when you replaced the regulator?

I'm all but positive it's an alternator, unless there are generators that look like alternators. 
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

Dave Shepherd

69 was an alternator for sure, I owned one, great car.

PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192

As it is an alternator please ignore my comment!

jcat

Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on May 23, 2023, 01:11:44 PMAs it is an alternator please ignore my comment!

No worries!  Was a learning experience for me.  I had never heard of repolarising a generator so I looked it up just for the heck of it.  Love learning new things about these cars.
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

bcroe

I found the internally regulated alternator a much
better system than the externally regulated generator
or alternator.  And the existing alternator is easily
swapped for the later system.  Extra wires and boxes
just disappear, any debugging is simplified, as is any
maintenance.  Parts are no problem, larger capacity
alternators are available, though the output wire might
need upgrade.  It will still tie into your original
GEN light. 

I am not good with the early alternators, but bad diodes
might cause the problems you describe.  good luck,
Bruce Roe

TJ Hopland

So maybe if you get into the wiring and the alternator to regulator wires are damaged it would be reasonable to just go to the slightly later internal setup.  The 10si series was 73-80ish and pretty much looks the same as what you have now.  Or even the 12si if you don't mind the fan looking different.  The 12's have better cooling but still overall the same case except they moved the 3rd rear mounting point slightly.  Doesn't seem to be that important and the main 2 are still the same.

I'm curious to hear where that breaker thing ends up in the circuit.  I wonder if its the battery to alternator wire that you think is missing?   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

jcat

Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 23, 2023, 04:03:12 PMSo maybe if you get into the wiring and the alternator to regulator wires are damaged it would be reasonable to just go to the slightly later internal setup.  The 10si series was 73-80ish and pretty much looks the same as what you have now.  Or even the 12si if you don't mind the fan looking different.  The 12's have better cooling but still overall the same case except they moved the 3rd rear mounting point slightly.  Doesn't seem to be that important and the main 2 are still the same.

I'm curious to hear where that breaker thing ends up in the circuit.  I wonder if its the battery to alternator wire that you think is missing?   

I wouldn't hate upgrading the alt, but also wouldn't mind not having to spend that money!

The breaker thing is definitely connected to that key cylinder in the front fender which is related to the alarm.  But there are two wires coming out of that key cylinder, i just can't remember off the top of my head.  I'll have to poke around under there again after work.  That cylinder is definitely alarm related, as there's an extra horn mounted on the driver's side wheelhouse for it and it resembles other alarm systems I saw when researching what it could be.
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#10
I'm not sure of the accuracy of that diagram. I'd use one out of the manual. There is a fuseable link that goes to the regulator so I'd check that.
Jeff RScreenshot_20230523_173019_Acrobat for Samsung.jpg
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

jcat

Jeff-

Thanks for posting that, still waiting on my replacement shop manual usb.

The diagram I got is from classiccarwiring.com. So far it's been really accurate as far as wiring color etc. it seems to correlate as it shows the link on the same jump from alternator to regulator which I do have.

However, the extra wire I had ran from the battery positive post to the same terminal on the regulator, which doesn't make sense. It's really small gauge too.

Here are a few more pics. I need to figure out where the wires from the alarm go to under the dash, but I think I can safely rip it all out from the engine compartment. I can also pull back the white wire that runs from the breaker thing to the battery and tie that to the alternator post as it should be, at least until I upgrade battery cables. It doesn't seem like the hood switch button is factory either, since there's a factory one up on the core support. That button just has one wire going back to the alarm horn.

B969B971-29D1-43A1-8C75-1F9CA6CBE596.jpeg

FB9A2057-8121-44D8-A823-A38312CE21DE.jpeg
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

jcat

spent some time on my lunch break just now tearing into old girl.


first, that breaker for the alarm is apparently a 40 amp  :o was not expecting that.

I removed that, cut the white wire back and put a ring on it to hit the alt post. 

Then I discovered that the wire leading from the red terminal on the regulator was spliced into a super tiny wire (20ga maybe?) that was stripped and wrapped around the alt post and crushed under the washer.

I cut that out, used a section of the heavier red wire from the alarm breaker and used a butt connector and a ring terminal as a quick fix to get it attached to the alternator also.  I still have not looked at fusible links, but I wanted to at least get the charging side of it cleaned up and reconnected how it should be according to the diagram.

Started the car and now the Gen light goes away like it should, but I'm not seeing 14 volts at the battery or testing across alt post and batt negative consistently.  I think next step is to deal with some damage to that red wire on the regulator connector where they spliced that tiny wire in from the battery and see what happens, or go back to the original regulator.  The regulator is still buzzing pretty good although not smoking anymore, so I think maybe a ground issue?  I have continuity to the body ground and the batt negative from the screw that goes into the regulator body so on face value it seems ok unless i'm missing something there too.
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

jcat

as luck would have it;  my power probe, head shrink solder connectors and cordless mini heat gun all showed up just now...right after I hacked things together with the crimp connectors.  >:(


My new shop manual USB also showed up and is working.  An interesting tidbit I found on page 6-47 section 64:  "With instruments connected as in fig. 6-51 (voltmeter and timing gun), operate engine to a speed of 1500-2000 RPM.  Observe volt meter.  Should be between 13.1 and 15 volts..."

So, at idle it seems like my 12-12.5 should be ok.  I'm going to double check it with the engine revved a bit, but i did see voltage climb when I gave it some throttle earlier.


Now, with the power probe, I can move onto figuring out why the electrical accessories aren't working and start making some repairs.  I have to lift the front of the car anyway to change the oil and work on the front brakes, so I suppose it'll be a good opportunity to get under there and check the starter wiring and fusible links while I'm under there.
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

jcat

Ok, the plot thickens. I'm
Stumped.

My gen light is still staying on at idle. Raising rpm it goes out. At idle it sits right at 12v. Regulator is still buzzing.

I have confirmed power at both sides of every fuse in the fuse block, and the breaker is brand new. This to me indicates the batt/alt/starter/fuse block wiring is ok since if a fusible link was broken I wouldn't have power to a portion of the block.

I still do not have power locks, windows, wipers, radio, horn or headlights. I tried to test between all 3 pins of the headlight connector and didn't get voltage on any of them.

I do have tail lights, brake lights, park lights. My signals flash, but my hazards are now steady and not flashing. 

There are two light sockets hanging under the dash, one a courtesy light the other a switch light that I haven't yet identified, but both are in rough shape.  I need to clean them up and put bulbs in them to see if they're lighting. I also need to pull the headlight switch and check the fuse in there.

I applied power with the probe to the window switches and lock switch and can make things happen. The window motors go (except when the poor connection stops it) and I hear the lock actuator trying to do something.

What am I missing?
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

badpoints

I would check the ground connections and add a few new ground connections. Engine to frame, battery to frame,engine.

bcroe

Quote from: jcatMy gen light is still staying on at idle. Raising rpm it goes out. At idle it sits right at 12v. Regulator is still buzzing.
What am I missing?

Did you check the alternator diodes yet?  Bruce Roe

jcat

Quote from: badpoints on May 26, 2023, 09:19:52 AMI would check the ground connections and add a few new ground connections. Engine to frame, battery to frame,engine.

That's a good point. Are those outlined in the service manual?

Quote from: bcroe on May 26, 2023, 11:40:47 AMDid you check the alternator diodes yet?  Bruce Roe

I haven't yet, been sifting through the test procedures and repairing bad wires as I come across them, but will add it to the list.
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

jcat

Ok, progress.

Charging system is sorted. I believe the ground to the regulator as well as the wire to the #3 terminal were bad. I redid ends on those and I'm now seeing 13.5 from the alternator at idle and the gen light goes out as expected.

Onto the windows and such, I've finally found something. The original 3 pin relay was removed at some point and wires were tapped into the originals to go to a connector for a more modern 5 pin relay in the kick panel. Everything in there is corroded and nasty, must be a leaky seal. I'm thinking that relay is toast.

With that in mind, I think I can wire in a new 5 pin relay to handle the job. What I'm confused about is the cutout switch, I guess it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work but I don't know where it fits in and how to wire it...sanity check would be super helpful!

Pin 30 gets constant 12v ignition on (orange/blk?)
Pin 86 gets ground

Those are the easy part. I think then the red/white feed goes to 87a (normally closed) since I don't have a signal wire. That powers the output only with ignition on and then let's the lockout do it's job bridging it's red/white to the pink/black in 'normal' sending power to the other windows...I think?

Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis

jcat

More progress. Grabbed a spare ford relay I had sitting around and got to wiring.

Pink to pin30, red/white feed to 87a, ground to pin 85 on a separate wire.

This got me to 3 out of 4 windows working. I think drivers front motor is shot.

I don't know what to do with the orange/blk wire that's labeled in the shop manual diagram 'to circuit breaker'.  I do think this has something to do with why the 7.5a radio and window control fuse keeps blowing on too much load though. The orange/blk is much heavier gauge than the pink wire.

The pink wire is switched 12v, i don't think I have 12v on the orange/blk with key on. It was definitely involved in the other relay, though.

Shop manual says pink, red/white and blk/orange. The diagram I bought says pink, red/white feed to master switch, and another red/white tapped off of orange/blk inbound to the relay. I do see another orange/black in the kick panel but it seems to run under the carpet so I assume that's the power seat wire also?

In that diagram, That tap point takes orange/blk from
The bigger piece of the body connector, splits it to another orange/blk that joins a purple and gray to feed convertible top in that model, and then the power seat adjuster harness connector.
Joe Catanzaro
----------------
1969 Sedan Deville
2017 S550 4matic (daily)
2017 XC90 T6 (wife's ride)
2015 F-Type R
2004 F350 5.4 (work pig)
2004 Grand Marquis