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Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => Technical / Authenticity => Topic started by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 18, 2023, 01:41:31 PM

Title: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 18, 2023, 01:41:31 PM
Howdy Folks,
My series 62 Sport Coupe 331 V8 idles and drives like a dream until I try to rev the engine or push the foot feed to the floor for passing. It felt like a fuel starvation problem so I performed the fuel pump test as outlined in the 54 shop manual. I am supposed to be getting 1/2 pint per 9 cycles ( squirts) I am only getting maybe a quarter of that. So little fuel in fact that I am amazed that the car runs and drives as well as it does. I pulled the pump , inspected it and performed a bench test and it is working great. I reinstalled it, tested it and still very low volume of fuel. I blew out the fuel line from the tank to the pump and also blew a little air back into the tank to maybe dislodge anything that may be on the pickup screen.. I also installed a fresh new inline fuel filter. I checked ALL fittings from the tank to the pump. Still very low volume. Has anyone ever had to replace the eccentric or push rod ? Is this a fairly common problem w our 331's ? The manual listed the rod wear as a possible cause on low volume. Thanks for any advice.. I am stumped..   
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on January 18, 2023, 05:18:37 PM
Bill, have you checked that the tiny ferrule is there at the point where the fuel line joins the gas tank? If that's missing it could cause the problem you're experiencing. The other test would be to run it from a can of gas instead of the gas tank. Run a hose direct from the can of gas to the inlet side of the fuel pump.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: J. Gomez on January 18, 2023, 06:22:09 PM
Bill,

There are a few post that deal with the fuel pump rod which it may or not help you.

I would take a wild guess if the rod itself do wears that bad to limit the fuel pump volume there would be several folks raising the issue here since the same rod was used from 1954 – 1959 (possible up to 1962 ???).
Same goes for the fuel pump lever which may wear a bit more than the rod itself. I know folks here suggest packing the pump lever with grease to keep the lubrication since there is no oil dripping at this place, only lubrication is when you add oil.

Also not sure when you test bench the fuel pump if you move the lever from the full rest to full stroke stop which would not be the same when it's on the engine. The pump lever would be compressed a bit on the rod (when the lobe on the camshaft is off the rod) and a bit before reaching the full stroke stop when lobe is at the top position on the rod (sorry do not have the correct angles/distance the pump lever travels under operation).

You can try replacing each piece pump and rod one at a time and see if that improves your condition.

Good luck..!
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 18, 2023, 08:18:32 PM
Thanks, I will pull the pump again and check the rod length after I run the gas can test and check for the ferrule at the tank that Phil suggested. Thanks J Gomez and Phil.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: V63 on January 18, 2023, 10:50:13 PM
With the alcohol blended fuels mandated today I would suspect the fuel pump itself. the alcohol component rapidly degrades rubber parts.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on January 19, 2023, 03:16:54 AM
Bill, I had a problem with a new fuel pump on my 54, the valves stopped working,they went hard and stopped sealing. This didn't fail overnight it got gradually worse over a period of time.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: James Landi on January 19, 2023, 08:25:05 AM
Bill,

When you tested the fuel pump off of the car, you pushed the fulcum as far as it will go--- what you failed to notice is that the pivot shaft wears, the fulcum doesn't immediately engage and THAT's your problem...the pump is toast... the cam follower is likely just fine.  In the "old days" knowledgeable mechanics would pack the pump case with grease, knowing that virtually no lubication will reach the pump's wear spots, and as the pump's mechanical parts gradually wear, the fulcum isn't sufficiently engaging the diaphragm   All of the above is base on real world experience on the NJ turnpike with 5 people in the car.   Hope this helps you.  James
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Cadillac Jack 82 on January 19, 2023, 08:40:01 AM

I can attest to the ethanol in gas messing pumps up.  I replaced my pump in my 55 only about 4 years ago and I feel like I need to replace it again.  Car will run fine but the filter bowl barely fills up which indicates a lack of pressure.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 19, 2023, 09:22:14 AM
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on January 19, 2023, 03:16:54 AMBill, I had a problem with a new fuel pump on my 54, the valves stopped working,they went hard and stopped sealing. This didn't fail overnight it got gradually worse over a period of time.
I guess I should have mentioned that the original pump failed due to the pivot pin on the lever working itself half way out and breaking the pump housing. This happened last summer. I rebuilt an OEM pump with a kit from Caddy Daddy so all of parts are new. The new kit came with what seems to be a neoprene rubber diaphragm and seals. I have rechecked my work and am very confident that everything is assembled properly. 
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: fishnjim on January 19, 2023, 11:19:15 AM
If the pump benches OK, then it's most likely not the pump.
 
So that leaves, suction(inlet), outlet, or mechanical actuation.
If the tank isn't vented right it won't deliver fuel correctly.  Assuming the line is clear as noted.  I'd try to syphon fuel from the line and see how much is flowing.  Try with cap on and cap off.  If the fuel filter was changed, the carb side could be blocked there's likely inlet screen(s).  The accelerator pump could also be weak, if it's not accelerating with pedaling. 
If the FP push rod mechanism is worn, then the stroke is short on the pump which limits delivery.   You'd need to measure that by rotating the engine and measuring the max. displacement.  Not much you can do if the rod and/or cam is worn other than replace them.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Lexi on January 19, 2023, 01:05:27 PM
What follows is text from an earlier post I did with respect to tests I conducted on my 1956 Cadillac fuel pump. Yes, '56, so not sure if the same, but I suspect they are or very close:

1) Volume output - disconnect OUTLET line, (carb side of pump) and place end of line in a container. Run car for 45 seconds to 1 minute at idle. You should get 1 - 1.5 pints of gas if output OK.

2) Crank only test with coil wire off (no engine starting wanted here) for about 20 sec. You should get about 1/2 pint of gas if OK, OUTLET side.

3) Vacuum test at idle with a vac gauge at pump INLET side. Disconnect line here and fit gauge to pump. Start car. A normally filled carb bowl will permit your car to run for at least a minute or more with the fuel pump disengaged. Run car and observe gauge. Normal minimum vacuum should be 10 - 13 inches. I believe the gauge needle indicator should be steady. I believe, (please correct me if I am mistaken). If it fluctuates, especially wildly, again, I believe that is indicative of an air leak.

4) Pressure test at OUTLET side of fuel pump. The reading on your vacuum gauge should be 5.5 psi with engine running at idle, (4 - 6.5 as per 1956 shop manual). I believe there is a separate section to read this on your vacuum gauge dial.

5) Check torque for the approximate 10 hold down screws around the perimeter of your pump (unless yours is a crimped unit w/o screws).

6) Check all connections as well as strainer nut seal, (see my earlier post) and strainer screen for debris. This is EXTREMELY important as is a source of air leakage (without gas leaking). There should be no air leaks here. This is an insidious place for air leakage and often overlooked.

7) Run car from a gas can if you think there is a problem somewhere in the fuel line before the pump or at the car's gas tank, as a test. Check lines for kinks & blow out with compressed air both directions, gently.

8) If all fails consider checking push rod length as might be worn, manual says should be 7.1425" - 7.1475" long, (same for 1954). Stroke said to be .245 - .250".

Tests done with car at room temperature as per manual. If you suspect a leaking well plug in your carburetor inspect your engine oil for odour of gasoline. I also believe a leaky pump diaphragm may cause gas to also leak into your engine. If you remove the pump and push rod, you may have to slightly 'bump' the engine to make it easier to fit the pump back on if push rod on high end of stroke and interferes with pump lever when re-installing.

Again, above mostly for a 1956 Cadillac 365 V8 engine, but should "ball park" for a '54. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: James Landi on January 19, 2023, 03:49:38 PM
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 19, 2023, 09:22:14 AMI guess I should have mentioned that the original pump failed due to the pivot pin on the lever working itself half way out and breaking the pump housing. This happened last summer. I rebuilt an OEM pump with a kit from Caddy Daddy so all of parts are new. The new kit came with what seems to be a neoprene rubber diaphragm and seals. I have rechecked my work and am very confident that everything is assembled properly. 

Bill--- don't mean to be a nag, but the pivot pin working out of the pump is a telltail regarding not lubrication. I suspect the fulcum on your latest pump is not engaging as it should--that cam follower only rises under an inch, but when YOU are pushing that lever, you're taking up all of the "problem" slack in the mechanism.  As I mention before, this problem occurs because of the lack of lubrication that quickly wears the several contact points out.  I think Lexi/CLay's idea of testing the pump with an alternate fuel vessel can easily verify whether the pump or the gas lines are the issue. Please take safety care doing this. As I mentioned above, the old time mechanics would pack the pump housing with grease to give these non lubricated parts some additional service life.  Hope this helps
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Lexi on January 19, 2023, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: James Landi on January 19, 2023, 03:49:38 PMBill--- don't mean to be a nag, but the pivot pin working out of the pump is a telltail regarding not lubrication. I suspect the fulcum on your latest pump is not engaging as it should--that cam follower only rises under an inch, but when YOU are pushing that lever, you're taking up all of the "problem" slack in the mechanism.  As I mention before, this problem occurs because of the lack of lubrication that quickly wears the several contact points out.  I think Lexi/CLay's idea of testing the pump with an alternate fuel vessel can easily verify whether the pump or the gas lines are the issue. Please take safety care doing this. As I mentioned above, the old time mechanics would pack the pump housing with grease to give these non lubricated parts some additional service life.  Hope this helps

James hi. What kind of grease did they pack in there, or does it matter? Also, the degree of fuel pump rod travel is very small as you noted. I think it is about 1/4 inch or less, with a range of motion differential of just less than 1/8 of an inch if my calculations are correct. So any deviation due to wear I imagine would show up quickly as less volume of fuel being moved through the pump. Not a lot of room for error. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: James Landi on January 20, 2023, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: Lexi on January 19, 2023, 07:18:40 PMJames hi. What kind of grease did they pack in there, or does it matter? Also, the degree of fuel pump rod travel is very small as you noted. I think it is about 1/4 inch or less, with a range of motion differential of just less than 1/8 of an inch if my calculations are correct. So any deviation due to wear I imagine would show up quickly as less volume of fuel being moved through the pump. Not a lot of room for error. Clay/Lexi


It was heavy wheel bearing type grease... I also recall, from the mid 60's seeing a zerk fitting on one of these pumps.  My personal experience follows:  Back in '72 with 4 adults and my 3 year old loaded in the '56 sedan on an early summer morning, zipping up the New Jersey turnpike --a/c blasting, to catch the last ferry to an island in Maine leaving at 6 P.M.  Motor starts to stumble for lack of gas.  Pull over, take off the fuel bowl, and not much gas coming out. Take off my relatively newly replaced AC pump, and manually pump it--- plenty of fuel comes out. Pull out the cam follower, hitch a ride to a local parts store, fuel pump and cam follower in hand. The NAPA store has a new cam follower (!) and a new fuel pump to do a comparison-- alsolutely NO wear on my high mlieage cam follower--"...but how can it be that I can manually pump my relatively new AC pump.  The counter man next to mine says, "Your machanic didn't pack the pump case with grease--no lubrication--you need a new pump and you need grease."  We missed the ferry by minutes .... it was a powerful lesson... sadly I find myself relating it to our CLC members, who are experiencing the same issue I did a half century ago.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Lexi on January 20, 2023, 08:41:28 AM
Quote from: James Landi on January 20, 2023, 08:24:13 AMIt was heavy wheel bearing type grease... I also recall, from the mid 60's seeing a zerk fitting on one of these pumps.  My personal experience follows:  Back in '72 with 4 adults and my 3 year old loaded in the '56 sedan on an early summer morning, zipping up the New Jersey turnpike --a/c blasting, to catch the last ferry to an island in Maine leaving at 6 P.M.  Motor starts to stumble for lack of gas.  Pull over, take off the fuel bowl, and not much gas coming out. Take off my relatively newly replaced AC pump, and manually pump it--- plenty of fuel comes out. Pull out the cam follower, hitch a ride to a local parts store, fuel pump and cam follower in hand. The NAPA store has a new cam follower (!) and a new fuel pump to do a comparison-- alsolutely NO wear on my high mlieage cam follower--"...but how can it be that I can manually pump my relatively new AC pump.  The counter man next to mine says, "Your machanic didn't pack the pump case with grease--no lubrication--you need a new pump and you need grease."  We missed the ferry by minutes .... it was a powerful lesson... sadly I find myself relating it to our CLC members, who are experiencing the same issue I did a half century ago.

Thanks James. Fascinating story. I always enjoy reading your posts. I think at least in early '56 the pump came with a zerk fitting. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: James Landi on January 20, 2023, 08:50:49 AM
Quote from: Lexi on January 20, 2023, 08:41:28 AMThanks James. Fascinating story. I always enjoy reading your posts. I think at least in early '56 the pump came with a zerk fitting. Clay/Lexi

Clay-- I was beginning to doubt my memory of the grease fitting on the gas pump (so counter intuitive)... such a maddening  design flaw.  And thank you for the affirmation...even at my advanced age (77), I'm doing some challenging  wrenching on my new Allante purchase (since my local go-to young mechanic is afraid to touch it!).  I very much enjoy the exchanges on this site--- best regards, James
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Lexi on January 20, 2023, 09:19:18 AM
Yes, these exchanges are fantastic James. You got 10 years on me and I am hoping my memory on this matter is accurate! Happy wrenching buddy! Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 20, 2023, 10:29:18 PM
  Thanks guys for the great wealth of knowledge and troubleshooting tips. I ran a bunch of the test and learned a lot about the fuel system. While the pump was off of the car I inspected the cam push rod. I took measurements of the stroke and observed it in action to confirm that all is good in that department. I then bypassed the fuel lines and hooked up a fuel hose from a gas can to the inlet side of the pump. Although the pump performs perfect while OFF the car the external gas can test still produced low volume. So James , your nagging (lol) proved to be fruitful. I also noticed what you were referring to concerning the play on the pump lever. Probably a good 1/2". I will for sure pack the next one with grease ! Thanks again everyone and I will keep ya all posted.    Bill
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 20, 2023, 10:35:44 PM
Quote from: Lexi on January 19, 2023, 07:18:40 PMJames hi. What kind of grease did they pack in there, or does it matter? Also, the degree of fuel pump rod travel is very small as you noted. I think it is about 1/4 inch or less, with a range of motion differential of just less than 1/8 of an inch if my calculations are correct. So any deviation due to wear I imagine would show up quickly as less volume of fuel being moved through the pump. Not a lot of room for error. Clay/Lexi

Just FYI ..I wanted to mention that the return line from the oil filter on my 54 dumps in right on top of the fuel pump lever. That probably helps a little with the cam/rod but obviously does not lubricate the wear points in the pump. I will for sure pack the new one.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Lexi on January 20, 2023, 11:46:26 PM
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 20, 2023, 10:29:18 PMAlthough the pump performs perfect while OFF the car the external gas can test still produced low volume. So James , your nagging (lol) proved to be fruitful. I also noticed what you were referring to concerning the play on the pump lever. Probably a good 1/2". I will for sure pack the next one with grease ! Thanks again everyone and I will keep ya all posted.    Bill

Thought I read on this Forum that working the action of the pump when off the car can in some cases impair it's operation. Have not looked for nor tested this myself, so I don't have an opinion. If true, perhaps it may involve over extending the rubber diaphragm in the pump so when re-installed it performs inadequatly? If true, perhaps one possible explanation to explain your results upon re-installation? Any thoughts out there? Other posts on the re-staking of the internal valves may also be of relevance. especially on new pumps that were reportedly made in an inferior manner. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 21, 2023, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: Lexi on January 20, 2023, 11:46:26 PMThought I read on this Forum that working the action of the pump when off the car can in some cases impair it's operation. Have not looked for nor tested this myself, so I don't have an opinion. If true, perhaps it may involve over extending the rubber diaphragm in the pump so when re-installed it performs inadequatly? If true, perhaps one possible explanation to explain your results upon re-installation? Any thoughts out there? Other posts on the re-staking of the internal valves may also be of relevance. especially on new pumps that were reportedly made in an inferior manner. Clay/Lexi

There is quite a bit of play in the new Neoprene type of diaphragms. In my case I followed the instructions in the 54's shop manual. It instructs to "Install top cover screws loosely until screw heads just contact the lock washers. Push rocker arm to FULL stroke and tighten cover screws" I assume this step will assure the that the Diaphragm is in position to pump it's highest volume?
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: J. Gomez on January 21, 2023, 11:30:52 AM
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 21, 2023, 09:40:03 AMThere is quite a bit of play in the new Neoprene type of diaphragms. In my case I followed the instructions in the 54's shop manual. It instructs to "Install top cover screws loosely until screw heads just contact the lock washers. Push rocker arm to FULL stroke and tighten cover screws" I assume this step will assure the that the Diaphragm is in position to pump it's highest volume?

Bill,

As I mention above the pump applies pressure on the rod once installed so the rocker lever would be a bit off the bottom end and when the lobe is at the top the rod will push the rocker lever up "but" it will be a bit short to reach the top stop end (pump side).

So the maximum pressure for the pump is place between these positions (lever travel).

If you look inside the area where the rocker is mounted you will notice the tabs for the top end stop. I've seen these all bent or MIA on a few pumps I rebuilt which may have been done by herculean forces.

The reason for pushing the rocker lever to the max top stop position before tightening the cover screws is for the diaphragm to reach the max compression without stretching the diaphragm. Since the normal pump operation will no reach this point (top stop) the diaphragm remains flexible and provides the max volume.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 22, 2023, 04:33:32 AM
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 20, 2023, 10:35:44 PMJust FYI ..I wanted to mention that the return line from the oil filter on my 54 dumps in right on top of the fuel pump lever. That probably helps a little with the cam/rod but obviously does not lubricate the wear points in the pump. I will for sure pack the new one.


Hey Bill, What do you mean the wear points in the pump?

The shop manual just states from my recollection that you need to add a little bit of wheel bearing grease on top of the fuel pump rod, and the lever to avoid premature wear of the lever.

Also I had a question regarding fuel pumps for the '54-56 Cads. Can you use the older '53 style pumps on them? Because I saw an old brochure for the '54 Caddy and in one of the pictures with the hood open it showed the older style fuel pump from '50-'53.

Not sure if that was an error of the photo department at the time but it seems like Cadillac was always making these small changes under the hood each year.

Some of the early 50's Cads fuel pumps had the fuel filter bowl mounted underneath the pumps while some others don't? I am confused. Here's some pictures of what I am talk about.


4226ECA0-DF83-4911-8F0D-33AA3FBCE7F6.png

AB816B6F-47E3-440D-9230-207637DE5CC9.png

1AC5E5DB-736E-4B30-9C54-EA336FD09D21.png

4226ECA0-DF83-4911-8F0D-33AA3FBCE7F6.png
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: 1959Fleetwood on January 29, 2023, 09:08:46 AM
Last month i had a '56 Cadillac in my shop who had the same problem, starvation of fuel. Bench testing was okay as it should be. The pump was overhauled with a rebuild set, still no good results. When i took of the pump once more from the oil filler tube i discovered that there was a difference between the diameter of the bolt holes in the pump housing an the bolts itself, it was nearly 1/8" difference witch in turn gives you a sloppy fit. When you mount the pump on the oil filler tube and with the push rod in the highest position contacting the pump lever, at that point you will mis that very last necessary diaphragm action pushing fuel. I solved the problem with a set of bushings that i've made witch fitted exactly in the pumpbody bolt holes and the correct diameter bolts. The car is running smooth again.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Matern Harmsel CLC 15331
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Lexi on January 29, 2023, 11:15:38 AM
Excellent point. As I noted earlier there is not much travel in the push rod so the deviation noted by Matern would affect efficiency. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: James Landi on January 30, 2023, 07:21:20 AM
Matern, 

As I've noted in previous posts, there's insufficient lubrication on those vital wear points in the pump to keep them from developing slop/lash--- that's why old timers would pack the pump housing with heavy grease, and as you noted,a millimeter or two can make the difference between a running engine and a stalling engine-- it's simply a very bad design. When you evaluate the placement of the pump on the oil filler neck, the negative design placement outweighs the positive placement-  Yes, its placement provided easy service of the glass filter bowl and removing the pump is very convenient;yet, the pump placement eventually was placed on the side of the engine where it receives plenty of lubication, and furthermore has the necessary space for a LONG pump arm that translates into significantly longer push on the pump. James
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 30, 2023, 10:38:00 AM
It is a bad design, especially with the short arm length. Everything does have to lined up correctly as well for the pump to work right.

I struggled installing the mechanical pump on my '54 when I went away from using the electric pump.

One of the issues I had was that oil was leaking from the mounting points of the housing of the pump. Even with using new gaskets, I found that using a thick layer of silicon gasket maker, help stop the oil seepage.

But just getting the pump to be able to line up properly can be a PITA. Because of it's not perfectly aligned it will cause low fuel pressure as the fuel pump arm isn't fully sitting on top of the push rod.
 
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 30, 2023, 11:28:51 AM
Okay Guys, I found the problem ...  But first let me back up a bit. When I started this thread I was stumped as to why I was getting low fuel in my glass/ filter and why the car would run and perform like it was starving for fuel. ( poor acceleration, rough idle) I received many great fuel system delivery troubleshooting ideas from everyone on this forum. After blowing out all the lines, checking all the fittings, Measuring and observing the travel of the cam/pushrod it was determined that the pump although bench testing okay was faulty due to the inside wear points being worn and having too much play. I replaced the pump with a new one that was built using materials that can stand up to todays fuels ( we will see). Ohh and James I packed this one full of GREASE ! After installing it I was delighted to notice the increased volume of fuel and the smooth idle. I Let the engine warm up and took her out for a test drive. Everything was going good until .... it happened again. So I started back at square one. When I crawled under the car to again disconnect the fuel line from the tank I immediately noticed that the tank bottom was caved in. I blew air into the tank from the fuel line and the bottom popped back out. I removed the vent hose from the tank and blew air into the tank thru the vent and fuel came out of the vent tube from the filler neck. I thought Hey this is supposed to be a vented tank and I should not be able to create a vacuum or positive pressure.  I know that everyone knows where I am going with this. The old cap quit venting causing all kinds of problems. I removed the old gasket material from the old cap and drilled two 3/16 in holes in the cap for good measure. I Test drove the car and it has never run better. I know that checking the tank vent was one of the first things to check but when I initially blew out all the lines (fuel to and from and the vent)I must have had the faulty cap off the car thus getting no vacuum or back pressure. I think the problem was a combination of the low performing pump AND that darn gas cap. Oh well, life is good. Thanks everyone for all the support. I sure learned a LOT about a 1954 Cadillac fuel system !
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 30, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 30, 2023, 10:38:00 AMIt is a bad design, especially with the short arm length. Everything does have to lined up correctly as well for the pump to work right.

I struggled installing the mechanical pump on my '54 when I went away from using the electric pump.

One of the issues I had was that oil was leaking from the mounting points of the housing of the pump. Even with using new gaskets, I found that using a thick layer of silicon gasket maker, help stop the oil seepage.

But just getting the pump to be able to line up properly can be a PITA. Because of it's not perfectly aligned it will cause low fuel pressure as the fuel pump arm isn't fully sitting on top of the push rod.
 
When I installed my new pump I made sure that the cam rod stroke was all the way at the bottom of its stroke then I installed the pump ( After packing it with grease) and left the bolts just loose enough to be able to position the pump to the center before tightening the bolts. I am not sure why yours is seeping oil. Is it possible that your pump housing is warped or bent ?
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 31, 2023, 07:36:56 AM
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 30, 2023, 11:44:18 AMWhen I installed my new pump I made sure that the cam rod stroke was all the way at the bottom of its stroke then I installed the pump ( After packing it with grease) and left the bolts just loose enough to be able to position the pump to the center before tightening the bolts. I am not sure why yours is seeping oil. Is it possible that your pump housing is warped or bent ?

It's possible that the housing could be slightly warped, but so far the pump has been working fine. Good to hear that you fixed the problem.

Who would have thought that venting issues from the tank would cause all of your problems! A lesson learned for all of us that own these cars. Thank you for sharing that with us.

BTW, when you say that you pack the pump with grease, where exactly are putting the grease at? Inside the arm where the spring is located or just on top of the push rod where the arm physically sits? Because I added some grease on top of the rod and underneath the pump arm which the shop many states to do.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: James Landi on January 31, 2023, 07:57:02 AM
Regarding grease in the pump housing:

Mine and Lexi/Clay are only two data points...my first '56 SDV (a gift from parents back in '65) had the original fuel pump, and I ran the car up to 125,000 before selling it.  My second one, purchased in '70, had fuel pump issues 2 years after I purchased it--- it was high mileage, but I can attest to the fact the my mechanic installed a new pump a year and some months before the NEW PUMP failed--- it had several thousand miles on it, and the wear point on the new pump had develop mechanical "slop/lash" -- that's when a Napa parts employee said, "THe old timers pack those pump housings with grease because there's not enough lubrication for the pump's mechanism."  With my second new pump installed during the summer of 1972, I commuted to work, 90 miles every day (18,000 a year) for five years, and never had a problem with that new pump packed with wheel bearing grease.  Hope this helps, James
 
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 31, 2023, 08:52:18 AM
Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 31, 2023, 07:36:56 AMIt's possible that the housing could be slightly warped, but so far the pump has been working fine. Good to hear that you fixed the problem.

Who would have thought that venting issues from the tank would cause all of your problems! A lesson learned for all of us that own these cars. Thank you for sharing that with us.

BTW, when you say that you pack the pump with grease, where exactly are putting the grease at? Inside the arm where the spring is located or just on top of the push rod where the arm physically sits? Because I added some grease on top of the rod and underneath the pump arm which the shop many states to do.
I just packed the wheel bearing grease into the pump where the lever comes out and you can see the spring.  I also put a little grease on the arm where it rides on the cam rod. My 54's oil filter return line runs to the oil filler neck and dumps in directly over the fuel pump lever providing some lubrication at that point but does not lubricate the inside of the pump as James describes. Hope this helps.  Bill
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on February 01, 2023, 07:58:19 AM
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 31, 2023, 08:52:18 AMI just packed the wheel bearing grease into the pump where the lever comes out and you can see the spring.  I also put a little grease on the arm where it rides on the cam rod. My 54's oil filter return line runs to the oil filler neck and dumps in directly over the fuel pump lever providing some lubrication at that point but does not lubricate the inside of the pump as James describes. Hope this helps.  Bill


I see, it makes sense, thanks Bill.
Title: Re: 54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on February 01, 2023, 08:01:31 AM
Quote from: James Landi on January 31, 2023, 07:57:02 AMRegarding grease in the pump housing:

Mine and Lexi/Clay are only two data points...my first '56 SDV (a gift from parents back in '65) had the original fuel, and I ran the car up to 125,000 before selling it.  My second one, purchased in '70, had fuel pump issues 2 years after I purchased it--- it was high mileage, but I can attest to the fact the my mechanic installed a new pump a year and some months before the NEW PUMP failed--- it had several thousand miles on it, and the wear point on the new pump had develop mechanic "slop/lash" -- that's when a Napa parts employee said, "THe old timeers pack those pump housings with grease because there's not enough lubrication for the pump's mechanism."  With my second new pump installed during the summer of 1972, I commuted to work, 90 miles every day (18,000 a year) for five years, and never had a problem with that new pump packed with wheel bearing grease.  Hope this helps, James
 

It's the small stuff like this that makes the biggest difference. I mean who would have thought of packing grease into the fuel pump arm could extend the life of the pump long term. I'm going to remember this trick if I ever run into the problem in the future.