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1971 CDV - Vibration at HWY speed under load

Started by impalamansgarage, February 09, 2016, 03:21:23 PM

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impalamansgarage

Quote from: cadman56 on February 11, 2016, 10:16:23 AM
One other question - did you purchase both PS/AC belts at the same time?  It used to be you had to purchase a 'matched set' of belts when running multiples on a device.  That meant the belts came from the same manufacturing drum.  They stopped selling matched sets about mid-way through my tenure of owning a NAPA parts store.  Your belts may be the problem.  Also make sure the PS pulley is completely at a 90 deg. to both belts.  If not, one belt will always have a different tension from the other.  Good luck.  Larry

Using the belts that were on the car when I bought it. They look fine but were a little loose for my taste.
I tightened them but the problem remains. I am leaning toward a bearing at this point, although I did not really want to get that deep into it. LOL.... looks like I've no choice.
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

cadman56

1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

impalamansgarage

Ok guys I removed the rear wheels and brake drums to make it easy to spin. Check out this video and tell me what this noise is. The transmission is in park.

I've replaced rear axle bearings before but I am not a diff expert by any means. Please listen to this
and tell me what is making this sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18PBSFdY4kw
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

impalamansgarage

I lowered the car and moved the transmission to neutral. Same noise.
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

The Tassie Devil(le)

Boy, that diff seems very loose.   Or you are very strong.

Never been able to spin an axle as easy as that.   The Noise appears to be coming from the sun wheels inside the carrier, and running very dry.

In normal driving, these wheels aren't turning, unless doing a one-wheel-burnout.   The whole carrier is turning.

From the noise I am hearing, I would be dropping out the diff centre, and be preparing myself for the sight of a horrible mess.

Axle races are best heard when turning left and right, as in applying load to the sides of the ball bearings/races.

To say that the vibration is only when the power is on and not off, sound like a diff problem.   And further seeing the way you can turn the axle so easily, I am thinking that there is very little side pre-loading on the Differential side bearings.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

impalamansgarage

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 11, 2016, 08:51:23 PM
Boy, that diff seems very loose.   Or you are very strong.

Never been able to spin an axle as easy as that.   The Noise appears to be coming from the sun wheels inside the carrier, and running very dry.

In normal driving, these wheels aren't turning, unless doing a one-wheel-burnout.   The whole carrier is turning.

From the noise I am hearing, I would be dropping out the diff centre, and be preparing myself for the sight of a horrible mess.

Axle races are best heard when turning left and right, as in applying load to the sides of the ball bearings/races.

To say that the vibration is only when the power is on and not off, sound like a diff problem.   And further seeing the way you can turn the axle so easily, I am thinking that there is very little side pre-loading on the Differential side bearings.

Bruce. >:D

Bruce keep in mind that I removed the brake drums so that makes it easier. Also, I just changed the diff gear oil two days ago. While I was in there I rotated it once around slowly and did not see any wear but I don't really know what to look for. Everything looked ok to me.

impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

impalamansgarage

Regardless of all that..... I should not hear anything like this should I? It should be quiet should it not?
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

Scot Minesinger

When I raise my 1970 Cadillac and back wheels are off the ground with selector in park, I cannot turn the wheels.  Park locks them.  The 1970 and 1971 have the same 2.93 ratio and all.  I had my differential rebuilt, from video looks and sounds like you may be looking at the same work. 
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

The Tassie Devil(le)

When in Park, the wheels won't turn if the centre is a Limited Slip Diff.

As the wheels shown in the video, the car has an open diff, as the opposite axle is turning in the opposite direction.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

impalamansgarage

Yes. Definitely an open diff on this car. So the question remains..... with an open diff, if you raise the car
in park and attempt to spin the wheels, will they move or not?
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

When you spin the wheels and hear the sound, do you feel a ticking/ vibration in/on the pumpkinhead? Sure sounds like stuff is flopping around in there. When you spin it like that, 1 gear is turning the other. What happens if you put it in neutral and spin the driveshaft? That would make the load on tbe gears different. Does/will the sound change?
You say you just changed the fluid. Do you still have it (sounds like a stupid question but I always dump stuff in jugs and dispose of it all at once when my wife says I need to get rid of it)? If not then suck out some new fluid and stick a magnet in it. Amy metal?
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: impalaman on February 11, 2016, 11:32:11 PM
Yes. Definitely an open diff on this car. So the question remains..... with an open diff, if you raise the car
in park and attempt to spin the wheels, will they move or not?
Yes, but the opposite wheel spins the opposite way, as yours is doing.

Even if not in park, there will usually be too much friction within the Transmission to stop the tail shaft from turning.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Scot Minesinger

In park with no posi diff both back wheels off the ground, I cannot turn the drive shaft, and consequently the wheels do not turn either.  When I remove the drive shaft, I am switching from N to P so the bolts are on the bottom for easier access.  Cannot leave in N when tightening or drive shaft rotates.  N to rotate, P to lock in position to tighten bolts on drive shaft to differential.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

cadman56

It is noisy.  Since you are almost there, pull the axles & fell the bearings.  I did hear gear chuckle but the 'roar' says bearings to me.  Good luck.  Larry
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Jon S

I also do not understand why it would spin in Park, but the noise sounds like a bad rear wheel bearing to me as opposed to a rear end noise.  Hard to tell without being there.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

impalamansgarage

Quote from: Jeff Rose                                         CLC #28373 on February 11, 2016, 11:56:34 PM
When you spin the wheels and hear the sound, do you feel a ticking/ vibration in/on the pumpkinhead? Sure sounds like stuff is flopping around in there. When you spin it like that, 1 gear is turning the other. What happens if you put it in neutral and spin the driveshaft? That would make the load on tbe gears different. Does/will the sound change?
You say you just changed the fluid. Do you still have it (sounds like a stupid question but I always dump stuff in jugs and dispose of it all at once when my wife says I need to get rid of it)? If not then suck out some new fluid and stick a magnet in it. Amy metal?
Jeff

I will try all of this tonight.
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

impalamansgarage

Quote from: Jeff Rose                                         CLC #28373 on February 11, 2016, 11:56:34 PM
When you spin the wheels and hear the sound, do you feel a ticking/ vibration in/on the pumpkinhead? Sure sounds like stuff is flopping around in there. When you spin it like that, 1 gear is turning the other. What happens if you put it in neutral and spin the driveshaft? That would make the load on tbe gears different. Does/will the sound change?
You say you just changed the fluid. Do you still have it (sounds like a stupid question but I always dump stuff in jugs and dispose of it all at once when my wife says I need to get rid of it)? If not then suck out some new fluid and stick a magnet in it. Amy metal?
Jeff

>> When you spin the wheels and hear the sound, do you feel a ticking/ vibration in/on the pumpkinhead?
Yes but I also here and feel it out near the wheels as well. Hard to tell where it is coming from.

>> What happens if you put it in neutral and spin the driveshaft?
I will do this tonight. I assume both wheels will spin the same direction.

Unfortunately no. The fluid is mixed with other stuff in my recycling container.

impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

impalamansgarage

Quote from: Jon S on February 12, 2016, 10:07:03 AM
I also do not understand why it would spin in Park, but the noise sounds like a bad rear wheel bearing to me as opposed to a rear end noise.  Hard to tell without being there.

In speaking with some folks more knowledgeable than I, this is the nature of an open differential. So the scenario is as follows:

- Car on lift, wheels in the air.
- Transmission in park.
- Grab one wheel and attempt to spin.
- You can in fact spin the wheel and the other one will go the opposite direction.
- This is the nature of an open diff. The two sides are not directly tied to one another.
- It is only when a force is applied to the drive shaft, that the wheels will spin the same direction.

impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

impalamansgarage

#38
I spun the drive shaft by hand and both wheels spun in the same direction as expected. For what it's worth I did not hear anything from the diff. The clicking noise when spinning the wheel is odd. It is coming from the diff. I would expect it to be quiet when you spin the wheel but maybe the ring gear and pinion gear are by some means disconnected under that circumstance (by design).... the the reason the drive shaft does not turn. Also "maybe" the clicking noise is due to whatever mechanism it is that is preventing the drive shaft to turn when you move the wheel. Me not being an expert by any means.... all pure conjecture and a lot of wishful thinking.

Now on the good part. I'm posting photos of the axle bearings and housing. It appears that the pass side was getting hot. Possibly both sides.

Check em out and let me know what you think.
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)

impalamansgarage

Pass side bearing.
impalamansgarage
https://www.youtube.com/c/impalamansgarage
1971 CDV (http://bit.ly/1QylevA)
1981 CDV (Sold)
1992 SDV (Sold)
1963 Fleetwood (Teenage Junker Project - Sold)