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New refrigerant-R134a replacement

Started by "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364, August 19, 2019, 12:59:47 PM

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"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Okay for those of you worried about the R134a phase out along comes R-513a. It’s available now at something like $750.00 for a 30 pound tank. Just an update
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

cadillacmike68

Yow.  :o

I'll stick with R134a until the last chinese mfr stops making it.  :P
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Big Fins

Huh? Glad I still have a coupla cases of R-12 on the shelf.
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top. (Misty Blue)
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top. (The Old Man) SOLD!

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

bcroe

What a racket that is.  Someone in the know could probably tell you a
commercial equivalent type at 1/10 th price.  Bruce Roe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Bruce
Just for conversations sake (I am not advocating this refrigerant), that is about $25.00 per pound. That is twice what 134a is currently selling form
But will probably be more competitive when our source of 134a “fabrique a Chin” raises the price
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

bcroe

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364
Bruce
Just for conversations sake (I am not advocating this refrigerant), that is about $25.00 per pound. That is twice what 134a is currently selling form
But will probably be more competitive when our source of 134a “fabrique a Chin” raises the price    Greg Surfas 

Right, I have never bought any 134A.  But when I started using R12
it was a dollar a pound.  Then one day they started making cans that
only held 15 oz, or 14 oz. like the grocery stores, raising the packaging
costs in hopes we would not notice the escalating price.  Then they
started REALLY raising it, then I bought a stock I have not yet used up. 

134A was just another step, new patents for the old expired.  I suppose
if someone is rebuilding your AC for you, the freon price is less noticeable
than to a DIY type.  Lately we are seeing another round of the patent
expiring process.  Last time my 82 was in Canada, I learned how it could
work well on propane-butane. 

Now R410A is the new home standard, one third that price and twice
as efficient.  5 units are in service here, with solar eliminating my electric
and heating bills with a COP in the 3-4 range.  But the auto market is still
targeted as the best profit opportunity.  Someone should figure out
how to put these units in a car.  Bruce Roe

TJ Hopland

Can it be mixed with R-134A or will shops need another machine?

Are they still moving forward with no longer making 134 stuff or will that continue now that this replacement is available?   I have heard that the 1234yf systems are much more expensive to manufacturer, weigh more, and take up more space compared to 134 systems so I would think if there was a less expensive alternative they would take it.    I have noticed a lot of smaller commercial equipment uses 134.   

When is 134a supposed to be done?    And will it be the same deal as others where there is a date for manufacture of new equipment that uses it then a date to manufacturer the actual refrigerant?

And while we are sort of on the subject I assume 1234yf has different fittings than both 12 and 134 so in theory you will know what you are dealing with?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Big Fins

When you can't get your fingers under the hood of your favorite ride, thank a greenie.
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top. (Misty Blue)
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top. (The Old Man) SOLD!

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

No mixing with 134a. All new cars now use HFO 1234yf which again require specific equipment and of course a refrigeration liscence.
Bruce we used buy R-12 in 2000 pound drums for $0.29 a pound but then I used to buy fully equipped 3/4 ton cab and chassis for $1700.00
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

cadillacmike68

Quote from: Big Fins on August 19, 2019, 06:36:17 PM
When you can't get your fingers under the hood of your favorite ride, thank a greenie.

It was the EU that started this mess fingering R134a as an environmental pollutant.   >:D
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

bcroe

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364
Bruce we used buy R-12 in 2000 pound drums for $0.29 a pound but then I used to buy fully equipped 3/4 ton cab and chassis for $1700.00  Greg Surfas 

I rest my case.  Bruce

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Face it Bruce. We’re so old we remember when dirt was new and shiny.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

The Tassie Devil(le)

But we also forget that when we were really young, some of us used to eat the dirt.   Or, so I have been told.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Big Fins

Are you kidding? Mud pies were a gourmet treat!
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top. (Misty Blue)
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top. (The Old Man) SOLD!

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

R S Steven

And don't forget that R1234YF, the new automotive refrigerant, mixed with compressor oil is (as they put it) mildly flammable.  A normal 12V spark won't ignite a leak but that 300V spark from a hybrid or electric car will. Also hot objects under hood could ignite it under the correct conditions.
Bob

jackworstell

OK   if I want to retrofit my 1969 R 12     automotive AC unit

     .....what is the best refrigerant to use ?
     .....and for this substitute how important is it to change out the hoses ?
     .....and for this substitute how important is it to change out the oil ?
                  ...Which oil should be used ?

Jack Worstell

Dan LeBlanc

Quote from: jackworstell on August 20, 2019, 10:28:43 AM
OK   if I want to retrofit my 1969 R 12     automotive AC unit

     .....what is the best refrigerant to use ?
     .....and for this substitute how important is it to change out the hoses ?
     .....and for this substitute how important is it to change out the oil ?
                  ...Which oil should be used ?

Jack Worstell

I wouldn't retrofit.  There's still R12 around.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

fishnjim

R-513a is a blend of 1234yf and 134a.
https://www.chemours.com/Opteon_Stationary/en_GB/products/opteon-xp10.html

The number designation actually means something in refrigerants, and the 400 & 500s are blends typically.   https://www.ashrae.org/technical-resources/standards-and-guidelines/ashrae-refrigerant-designations

This all started with the "ozone hole" when they "banned" 12 (CCl2F2) as ozone depleting, but just for most countries and uses(?).   China was "undeveloped" so was allowed to make and use?   Then global warming hit the fan, and they started to look at GWP and that hurt 134a.   And that lead to it's demise(2015), but still has a few more years (2021 USA) and rush for all the substitutes.   

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Actually it is an Azeotropic mixture meaning the components do not fractionalized or separate. Lots of history regarding refrigerants and lots of urban myths to color that history. What we have now is what the marketplace offers TODAY and dealing with that results in a whole lot less angst than blaming anything. If I wanted to work myself up I could complain about the music stores (are there still any of those?) not having the latest music in 8 tracks for
My 76,  if that probably won’t change a thing.
R-513a is being promoted as a future replacement for 134a when the Chinese sources for the raw materials in 134a become less available Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-