News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

54 331 fuel pump / eccentric cam ?

Started by Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225, January 18, 2023, 01:41:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225

Quote from: Lexi on January 20, 2023, 11:46:26 PMThought I read on this Forum that working the action of the pump when off the car can in some cases impair it's operation. Have not looked for nor tested this myself, so I don't have an opinion. If true, perhaps it may involve over extending the rubber diaphragm in the pump so when re-installed it performs inadequatly? If true, perhaps one possible explanation to explain your results upon re-installation? Any thoughts out there? Other posts on the re-staking of the internal valves may also be of relevance. especially on new pumps that were reportedly made in an inferior manner. Clay/Lexi

There is quite a bit of play in the new Neoprene type of diaphragms. In my case I followed the instructions in the 54's shop manual. It instructs to "Install top cover screws loosely until screw heads just contact the lock washers. Push rocker arm to FULL stroke and tighten cover screws" I assume this step will assure the that the Diaphragm is in position to pump it's highest volume?
If you ain't Wrenching ...  You ain't Livin.  So get out there and Live a little..  !!

Current Labors of LOVE;
1948 series 62 Club Coupe / 346 L head / Rendon Blue
1954 series 62 Sport Coupe / 331 V8 / Aztec Red
1970 Deville Rag Top / 472 V8 / Nottingham Green

Previous Caddies ;

1969 Fleetwood Eldorado / 472 V8 / Wisteria
1974 Sedan DeVille
1993 SLS / White Diamond
2006 CTS / White Diamond

J. Gomez

Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 21, 2023, 09:40:03 AMThere is quite a bit of play in the new Neoprene type of diaphragms. In my case I followed the instructions in the 54's shop manual. It instructs to "Install top cover screws loosely until screw heads just contact the lock washers. Push rocker arm to FULL stroke and tighten cover screws" I assume this step will assure the that the Diaphragm is in position to pump it's highest volume?

Bill,

As I mention above the pump applies pressure on the rod once installed so the rocker lever would be a bit off the bottom end and when the lobe is at the top the rod will push the rocker lever up "but" it will be a bit short to reach the top stop end (pump side).

So the maximum pressure for the pump is place between these positions (lever travel).

If you look inside the area where the rocker is mounted you will notice the tabs for the top end stop. I've seen these all bent or MIA on a few pumps I rebuilt which may have been done by herculean forces.

The reason for pushing the rocker lever to the max top stop position before tightening the cover screws is for the diaphragm to reach the max compression without stretching the diaphragm. Since the normal pump operation will no reach this point (top stop) the diaphragm remains flexible and provides the max volume.
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

64\/54Cadillacking

#22
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 20, 2023, 10:35:44 PMJust FYI ..I wanted to mention that the return line from the oil filter on my 54 dumps in right on top of the fuel pump lever. That probably helps a little with the cam/rod but obviously does not lubricate the wear points in the pump. I will for sure pack the new one.


Hey Bill, What do you mean the wear points in the pump?

The shop manual just states from my recollection that you need to add a little bit of wheel bearing grease on top of the fuel pump rod, and the lever to avoid premature wear of the lever.

Also I had a question regarding fuel pumps for the '54-56 Cads. Can you use the older '53 style pumps on them? Because I saw an old brochure for the '54 Caddy and in one of the pictures with the hood open it showed the older style fuel pump from '50-'53.

Not sure if that was an error of the photo department at the time but it seems like Cadillac was always making these small changes under the hood each year.

Some of the early 50's Cads fuel pumps had the fuel filter bowl mounted underneath the pumps while some others don't? I am confused. Here's some pictures of what I am talk about.


4226ECA0-DF83-4911-8F0D-33AA3FBCE7F6.png

AB816B6F-47E3-440D-9230-207637DE5CC9.png

1AC5E5DB-736E-4B30-9C54-EA336FD09D21.png

4226ECA0-DF83-4911-8F0D-33AA3FBCE7F6.png
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

1959Fleetwood

Last month i had a '56 Cadillac in my shop who had the same problem, starvation of fuel. Bench testing was okay as it should be. The pump was overhauled with a rebuild set, still no good results. When i took of the pump once more from the oil filler tube i discovered that there was a difference between the diameter of the bolt holes in the pump housing an the bolts itself, it was nearly 1/8" difference witch in turn gives you a sloppy fit. When you mount the pump on the oil filler tube and with the push rod in the highest position contacting the pump lever, at that point you will mis that very last necessary diaphragm action pushing fuel. I solved the problem with a set of bushings that i've made witch fitted exactly in the pumpbody bolt holes and the correct diameter bolts. The car is running smooth again.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Matern Harmsel CLC 15331
Matern Harmsel
CLC # 15331

1941 Cadillac series 6227D
1953 Cadillac series 6237
1959 Cadillac series 6029
1969 Chevrolet ElCamino

Lexi

Excellent point. As I noted earlier there is not much travel in the push rod so the deviation noted by Matern would affect efficiency. Clay/Lexi

James Landi

Matern, 

As I've noted in previous posts, there's insufficient lubrication on those vital wear points in the pump to keep them from developing slop/lash--- that's why old timers would pack the pump housing with heavy grease, and as you noted,a millimeter or two can make the difference between a running engine and a stalling engine-- it's simply a very bad design. When you evaluate the placement of the pump on the oil filler neck, the negative design placement outweighs the positive placement-  Yes, its placement provided easy service of the glass filter bowl and removing the pump is very convenient;yet, the pump placement eventually was placed on the side of the engine where it receives plenty of lubication, and furthermore has the necessary space for a LONG pump arm that translates into significantly longer push on the pump. James

64\/54Cadillacking

It is a bad design, especially with the short arm length. Everything does have to lined up correctly as well for the pump to work right.

I struggled installing the mechanical pump on my '54 when I went away from using the electric pump.

One of the issues I had was that oil was leaking from the mounting points of the housing of the pump. Even with using new gaskets, I found that using a thick layer of silicon gasket maker, help stop the oil seepage.

But just getting the pump to be able to line up properly can be a PITA. Because of it's not perfectly aligned it will cause low fuel pressure as the fuel pump arm isn't fully sitting on top of the push rod.
 
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225

#27
Okay Guys, I found the problem ...  But first let me back up a bit. When I started this thread I was stumped as to why I was getting low fuel in my glass/ filter and why the car would run and perform like it was starving for fuel. ( poor acceleration, rough idle) I received many great fuel system delivery troubleshooting ideas from everyone on this forum. After blowing out all the lines, checking all the fittings, Measuring and observing the travel of the cam/pushrod it was determined that the pump although bench testing okay was faulty due to the inside wear points being worn and having too much play. I replaced the pump with a new one that was built using materials that can stand up to todays fuels ( we will see). Ohh and James I packed this one full of GREASE ! After installing it I was delighted to notice the increased volume of fuel and the smooth idle. I Let the engine warm up and took her out for a test drive. Everything was going good until .... it happened again. So I started back at square one. When I crawled under the car to again disconnect the fuel line from the tank I immediately noticed that the tank bottom was caved in. I blew air into the tank from the fuel line and the bottom popped back out. I removed the vent hose from the tank and blew air into the tank thru the vent and fuel came out of the vent tube from the filler neck. I thought Hey this is supposed to be a vented tank and I should not be able to create a vacuum or positive pressure.  I know that everyone knows where I am going with this. The old cap quit venting causing all kinds of problems. I removed the old gasket material from the old cap and drilled two 3/16 in holes in the cap for good measure. I Test drove the car and it has never run better. I know that checking the tank vent was one of the first things to check but when I initially blew out all the lines (fuel to and from and the vent)I must have had the faulty cap off the car thus getting no vacuum or back pressure. I think the problem was a combination of the low performing pump AND that darn gas cap. Oh well, life is good. Thanks everyone for all the support. I sure learned a LOT about a 1954 Cadillac fuel system !
If you ain't Wrenching ...  You ain't Livin.  So get out there and Live a little..  !!

Current Labors of LOVE;
1948 series 62 Club Coupe / 346 L head / Rendon Blue
1954 series 62 Sport Coupe / 331 V8 / Aztec Red
1970 Deville Rag Top / 472 V8 / Nottingham Green

Previous Caddies ;

1969 Fleetwood Eldorado / 472 V8 / Wisteria
1974 Sedan DeVille
1993 SLS / White Diamond
2006 CTS / White Diamond

Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225

Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 30, 2023, 10:38:00 AMIt is a bad design, especially with the short arm length. Everything does have to lined up correctly as well for the pump to work right.

I struggled installing the mechanical pump on my '54 when I went away from using the electric pump.

One of the issues I had was that oil was leaking from the mounting points of the housing of the pump. Even with using new gaskets, I found that using a thick layer of silicon gasket maker, help stop the oil seepage.

But just getting the pump to be able to line up properly can be a PITA. Because of it's not perfectly aligned it will cause low fuel pressure as the fuel pump arm isn't fully sitting on top of the push rod.
 
When I installed my new pump I made sure that the cam rod stroke was all the way at the bottom of its stroke then I installed the pump ( After packing it with grease) and left the bolts just loose enough to be able to position the pump to the center before tightening the bolts. I am not sure why yours is seeping oil. Is it possible that your pump housing is warped or bent ?
If you ain't Wrenching ...  You ain't Livin.  So get out there and Live a little..  !!

Current Labors of LOVE;
1948 series 62 Club Coupe / 346 L head / Rendon Blue
1954 series 62 Sport Coupe / 331 V8 / Aztec Red
1970 Deville Rag Top / 472 V8 / Nottingham Green

Previous Caddies ;

1969 Fleetwood Eldorado / 472 V8 / Wisteria
1974 Sedan DeVille
1993 SLS / White Diamond
2006 CTS / White Diamond

64\/54Cadillacking

Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 30, 2023, 11:44:18 AMWhen I installed my new pump I made sure that the cam rod stroke was all the way at the bottom of its stroke then I installed the pump ( After packing it with grease) and left the bolts just loose enough to be able to position the pump to the center before tightening the bolts. I am not sure why yours is seeping oil. Is it possible that your pump housing is warped or bent ?

It's possible that the housing could be slightly warped, but so far the pump has been working fine. Good to hear that you fixed the problem.

Who would have thought that venting issues from the tank would cause all of your problems! A lesson learned for all of us that own these cars. Thank you for sharing that with us.

BTW, when you say that you pack the pump with grease, where exactly are putting the grease at? Inside the arm where the spring is located or just on top of the push rod where the arm physically sits? Because I added some grease on top of the rod and underneath the pump arm which the shop many states to do.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

James Landi

#30
Regarding grease in the pump housing:

Mine and Lexi/Clay are only two data points...my first '56 SDV (a gift from parents back in '65) had the original fuel pump, and I ran the car up to 125,000 before selling it.  My second one, purchased in '70, had fuel pump issues 2 years after I purchased it--- it was high mileage, but I can attest to the fact the my mechanic installed a new pump a year and some months before the NEW PUMP failed--- it had several thousand miles on it, and the wear point on the new pump had develop mechanical "slop/lash" -- that's when a Napa parts employee said, "THe old timers pack those pump housings with grease because there's not enough lubrication for the pump's mechanism."  With my second new pump installed during the summer of 1972, I commuted to work, 90 miles every day (18,000 a year) for five years, and never had a problem with that new pump packed with wheel bearing grease.  Hope this helps, James
 

Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225

Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on January 31, 2023, 07:36:56 AMIt's possible that the housing could be slightly warped, but so far the pump has been working fine. Good to hear that you fixed the problem.

Who would have thought that venting issues from the tank would cause all of your problems! A lesson learned for all of us that own these cars. Thank you for sharing that with us.

BTW, when you say that you pack the pump with grease, where exactly are putting the grease at? Inside the arm where the spring is located or just on top of the push rod where the arm physically sits? Because I added some grease on top of the rod and underneath the pump arm which the shop many states to do.
I just packed the wheel bearing grease into the pump where the lever comes out and you can see the spring.  I also put a little grease on the arm where it rides on the cam rod. My 54's oil filter return line runs to the oil filler neck and dumps in directly over the fuel pump lever providing some lubrication at that point but does not lubricate the inside of the pump as James describes. Hope this helps.  Bill
If you ain't Wrenching ...  You ain't Livin.  So get out there and Live a little..  !!

Current Labors of LOVE;
1948 series 62 Club Coupe / 346 L head / Rendon Blue
1954 series 62 Sport Coupe / 331 V8 / Aztec Red
1970 Deville Rag Top / 472 V8 / Nottingham Green

Previous Caddies ;

1969 Fleetwood Eldorado / 472 V8 / Wisteria
1974 Sedan DeVille
1993 SLS / White Diamond
2006 CTS / White Diamond

64\/54Cadillacking

#32
Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 31, 2023, 08:52:18 AMI just packed the wheel bearing grease into the pump where the lever comes out and you can see the spring.  I also put a little grease on the arm where it rides on the cam rod. My 54's oil filter return line runs to the oil filler neck and dumps in directly over the fuel pump lever providing some lubrication at that point but does not lubricate the inside of the pump as James describes. Hope this helps.  Bill


I see, it makes sense, thanks Bill.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

64\/54Cadillacking

Quote from: James Landi on January 31, 2023, 07:57:02 AMRegarding grease in the pump housing:

Mine and Lexi/Clay are only two data points...my first '56 SDV (a gift from parents back in '65) had the original fuel, and I ran the car up to 125,000 before selling it.  My second one, purchased in '70, had fuel pump issues 2 years after I purchased it--- it was high mileage, but I can attest to the fact the my mechanic installed a new pump a year and some months before the NEW PUMP failed--- it had several thousand miles on it, and the wear point on the new pump had develop mechanic "slop/lash" -- that's when a Napa parts employee said, "THe old timeers pack those pump housings with grease because there's not enough lubrication for the pump's mechanism."  With my second new pump installed during the summer of 1972, I commuted to work, 90 miles every day (18,000 a year) for five years, and never had a problem with that new pump packed with wheel bearing grease.  Hope this helps, James
 

It's the small stuff like this that makes the biggest difference. I mean who would have thought of packing grease into the fuel pump arm could extend the life of the pump long term. I'm going to remember this trick if I ever run into the problem in the future.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞