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1969 DeVille Convertible Project

Started by sturner50502, February 17, 2018, 09:31:06 PM

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sturner50502

Still Prepping Engine Before Starting

While going through my checks before attempting to "wake-up" my engine, I decided to check the filter at the carburetor. I previously replaced the fuel tank, sending unit, rubber fuel hoses at the tank and the fuel pump. I also blew compressed air through the fuel lines. I then thought that maybe I should check the fuel filter at the carburetor. I was surprised to see this filter (See pics). Can anyone tell me if this looks normal? I checked the shop manual and saw that it is referred to as a "fuel strainer."

Also, I think there is a filter in the fuel pump. Can anyone confirm this for me?

Thanks everyone!

Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

James Landi

Yes-- the purpose of the mesh screen is to ensure that the carburetor float valve, comprised of small brass plunger  with a rubber tip, is not fouled with a piece of debris that could cause the tip to be "hung up" between the tip and the valve seat, thus creating a dangerous fuel flooding situation. be extra careful when you reinstall this, as the "body" of the fitting at the carburetor is only aluminum, and is easily stripped if the brass fittings are improperly aligned.
Keep the questions and pictures coming-- we're all anxiously awaiting the "wake up!"     Happy day, James

DeVille68

Yes, this is a original type mesh filter. On my carb it is missing. There are some bronze sinter filter available (on ebay). I just left it out and re-installed the primitive screen but installed a K&N inline fuel filter. Never had an issue.
Yes, as James said, try to use a line wrench in order to not damage the fitting.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=line+wrench

Best regards,
Nicolas
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

sturner50502

Quote from: DeVille68 on April 03, 2020, 02:52:46 PM
Yes, this is a original type mesh filter. On my carb it is missing. There are some bronze sinter filter available (on ebay). I just left it out and re-installed the primitive screen but installed a K&N inline fuel filter. Never had an issue.
Yes, as James said, try to use a line wrench in order to not damage the fitting.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=line+wrench

Best regards,
Nicolas

Thanks Nicolas, This is an indicator that the carb has never been rebuilt. It certainly looks as if no one has ever touched it.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

James Landi

Steve,

Crank the engine and get some gas in the carburetor... then check to see if the accelerator pump is squirting fuel down to the intake manifold.  If so, the carburetor will give you sufficient utility to get the engine running.  There are likely many other challenges that will require your immediate attention, if you get it running, even if it's running rough.   Just a suggestion,   James

sturner50502

Engine Start-up Update!

So, to update everyone. I was able to get the engine to start, but it wouldn't stay running. We were able to keep it running as long as fuel was in the carburetor bowl. We eliminated a fuel pump problem, as fuel is getting to the carburetorfrom the pump. Likely going to be a problem with the carburetor. I will be rebuilding the carburetor over the next week or two.

Prior to trying to start the engine, we did a compression test. Here are the results (wet test due to fogging oil being in cylinders):

Cylinder 1 - 155
Cylinder 2 - 170
Cylinder 3 - 130
Cylinder 4 - 150
Cylinder 5 - 110
Cylinder 6 - 135
Cylinder 7 - 165
Cylinder 8 - 125

Seems like the results are all over the place. My plan is to get the carb rebuilt, get it running right and then do another series of compression tests. Any feed back is appreciated! Progress is being made...
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

James Landi

That's so terrific!  The relatively low compression is likely to clear up as you warm up the engine and compression rings and valves re seat.  This is great news!  Did the engine feel and sound as if it were running relatively smoothly-- viz: all cylinders firing?  How long were you able to keep it running?  Again, don't fret about the compression readings.  Did you have the cooling system full?    DO you have an air compressor? --compressed air is necessary to power out collected gasoline separation particulate that clogs the low speed idle channels.  "Gum Out" and solvents with out compressed air are generally not sufficient.  Again-- congratulations!  Keep us all posted.   Best news of my day!  James

sturner50502

Quote from: James Landi on April 04, 2020, 10:32:41 PM
That's so terrific!  The relatively low compression is likely to clear up as you warm up the engine and compression rings and valves re seat.  This is great news!  Did the engine feel and sound as if it were running relatively smoothly-- viz: all cylinders firing?  How long were you able to keep it running?  Again, don't fret about the compression readings.  Did you have the cooling system full?    DO you have an air compressor? --compressed air is necessary to power out collected gasoline separation particulate that clogs the low speed idle channels.  "Gum Out" and solvents with out compressed air are generally not sufficient.  Again-- congratulations!  Keep us all posted.   Best news of my day!  James

Hey James,
Yes, the engine was running relatively smoothly. We kept having to fill the carb float bowl and the engine would run for a few seconds before dying (likely the float bowl empty of fuel). We would refill the float bowl and it wold run again for a few seconds. I did have the cooling system full. Before attempting to start I drained the radiator and filled with antifreeze; drained the oil and replaced the filter; I replaced all the plugs and wires, new distributor cap and coil. The points looked good so didn't replace them. And yes, I do have compressed air. I will use it as you suggest.

Yeah I am really excited. It made my day to hear it run! Seemed like the more it ran the better/smoother the engine got. After several times we decided the card needs rebuilding so called it quits for the day.

I also had to replace the starter as it was not engaging fully when we initially tried starting. A quick trip to the parts store and after install the engine began to come to life. Good day today... huge progress for my resto project!! I also learned the AIR pump was seized so gotta order another.

Thanks for everything and I will continue to update. 
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

James Landi

Terrific-- your engine is performing as I had hoped.  As you start and run it, it will continue to smooth out.  Not sure what you meant about "filling the bowl."  Are you referencing the fuel bowl that is associated with the fuel pump?   Or are you literally stating that the carburetor was not accepting gasoline, and you were pouring a small amount down the carburetor and into the intake to get it to run for a few seconds?  I mention this because one minor test regarding your carburetor has you taking off the air filter, and using a flash light, pumping the accelerator. In normal operation, you see gasoline squirting out of two small spouts at as you pump the accelerator.  If that's not happening, the carburetor is likely not helping you to keep the engine running at all. Sometimes after years of not running, the floats will stick in the "up position" (think of a toilet bowl float-- same concept) and no fuel will be accepted.  Your old starter likely needs some "Blaster" on the gear assembly and a bit
of persuasion to get that gear to engage... likely rust is holding it back.  Again, you;ve come a very long way.  In the next stage, getting the engine to run without feeding it "intravenously" will provide you with an opportunity to make additional tests regarding its health--- and finally, from personal experience and from all that you;ve shown in pictures, it's a testament to the quality of Cadillac engineering that the engine works. Most recently, we've CLC members whose engines were so stuck that they were rendered useless.  There are many others who had to have their engines rebuilt for lack of adequate compression, with stuck rings, scored cylinder walls and bent valve stems.   While it's hard to tell just how long your engine has been idle, judging from the condition of the interior, it was many years-- truly incredible!   Happy day,   James

DeVille68

Nice! As James said, probably a stuck float.
I got my rebuild kit from http://www.daytonaparts.com/. There is also https://quadrajetparts.com/.
I have good experiences with both of them. The needle and accelerator pump that Daytona sells are especially nice.

If you like reading a book first, I can highly recommend the book Rochester Carburetors, Revised Edition, 1987, Doug Roe
and
How to Rebuild & Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors, 2006, Cliff Ruggles

Where the first is more technical and explains the quadrajet in detail, the later is more about modifying. Actually, I find you need both. For a rebuild the first one might be sufficient.

Best regards,
Nicolas
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

sturner50502

Quote from: James Landi on April 05, 2020, 08:24:44 AM
Terrific-- your engine is performing as I had hoped.  As you start and run it, it will continue to smooth out.  Not sure what you meant about "filling the bowl."  Are you referencing the fuel bowl that is associated with the fuel pump?   Or are you literally stating that the carburetor was not accepting gasoline, and you were pouring a small amount down the carburetor and into the intake to get it to run for a few seconds?  I mention this because one minor test regarding your carburetor has you taking off the air filter, and using a flash light, pumping the accelerator. In normal operation, you see gasoline squirting out of two small spouts at as you pump the accelerator.  If that's not happening, the carburetor is likely not helping you to keep the engine running at all. Sometimes after years of not running, the floats will stick in the "up position" (think of a toilet bowl float-- same concept) and no fuel will be accepted.  Your old starter likely needs some "Blaster" on the gear assembly and a bit
of persuasion to get that gear to engage... likely rust is holding it back.  Again, you;ve come a very long way.  In the next stage, getting the engine to run without feeding it "intravenously" will provide you with an opportunity to make additional tests regarding its health--- and finally, from personal experience and from all that you;ve shown in pictures, it's a testament to the quality of Cadillac engineering that the engine works. Most recently, we've CLC members whose engines were so stuck that they were rendered useless.  There are many others who had to have their engines rebuilt for lack of adequate compression, with stuck rings, scored cylinder walls and bent valve stems.   While it's hard to tell just how long your engine has been idle, judging from the condition of the interior, it was many years-- truly incredible!   Happy day,   James

Hey James,

Yeah. I was talking about the float bowl. We were pouring fuel into the carburetor to get the engine running. We tried tapping on the side of the carburetor to get the float unstuck. We also poured fuel into the carburetor, and started the engine numerous times, hoping fresh fuel would work its way through but no luck. So, I will rebuild the carb.

More to follow.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

sturner50502

Quote from: DeVille68 on April 05, 2020, 11:48:21 AM
Nice! As James said, probably a stuck float.
I got my rebuild kit from http://www.daytonaparts.com/. There is also https://quadrajetparts.com/.
I have good experiences with both of them. The needle and accelerator pump that Daytona sells are especially nice.

If you like reading a book first, I can highly recommend the book Rochester Carburetors, Revised Edition, 1987, Doug Roe
and
How to Rebuild & Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors, 2006, Cliff Ruggles

Where the first is more technical and explains the quadrajet in detail, the later is more about modifying. Actually, I find you need both. For a rebuild the first one might be sufficient.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Hey Nicolas,

Thanks for the great information. I ordered a rebuild kit from the local auto parts store. I think I will go with your recommendation instead. Thanks again. I will keep updating.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

sturner50502

Help me Identify this Engine Component/Switch

Can someone help me with this switch. You probably already can tell from the attached photo, but to help orient you; the switch is located at the front, top of the engine, between the thermostat and distributor, under the A/C compressor (the compressor was removed prior to photo).

I checked the shop manual and could not determine what it is. I'm guessing a water temp. switch..? I know the oil pressure switch is at the rear of the engine and there is an engine temp. switch on the right side, front of engine, near the #2 cylinder. However, I am unable to confirm this switch (see photo)

1) Can someone please help me with this and tell me what it is?
2) Since it is now accessible, should I replace it before putting the compressor back on? It looks like the original one. Not sure if this is an item that tends to fail over time.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

sturner50502

Looking for Feedback on this Issue

Okay Gents (and possibly ladies),

Can you all take a look at this photo and tell me what I have to worry about, if anything.  I removed the carburetor and found the gasket was deteriorated but I was able to remove most of the gasket intact. However, there is a channel in the intake manifold that was caked with gasket material. As I began to scrape away the gasket that stuck to the manifold, I found this channel packed with gasket material. I partially dug out some material before taking the photo.

1) Can anyone tell me if this channel needs to be free of any gasket material?
2) Are there any ports/passages that needs to be free of debris? If so, suggestions on how to clear the passage(s) of debris?
3) Is this a fuel channel or air channel?
4) What purpose does it serve?

Thanks for any/all responses
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Steve,

Firstly, the fitting near the Thermostat housing is the Sensor for the Coolant Temperature.

The passage in front of the Primary Ports in the Intake Manifold is part of the Exhaust Crossover that transfers exhaust gases from one cylinder head to the other, under the Carby, and is there to aid in engine warm-up.

In most cases, that passage will be blocked up, and if you need to, it can be cleaned out, and it is also another reason for the stainless steel plate that is sandwiched between the Carby and the Manifold, including a heat-proof gasket with the matching passage to isolate the passage from the carby.   Nothing to do with Anti Pollution controls, but driving when cold.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

spolij

Bruce Isn't there a hole or two in that channel, under all that mess?

The Tassie Devil(le)

There are two holes.   One at each end of the channel, and they go straight down and enter the exhaust cross-over/under chamber.   The reason there is so much crud in the channel is from years of the gases entering and departing the channel, and eventually carrying with the gas, the contaminants that is usually involved with burnt fuel.

I have never bothered to clean out that passage, as I don't need the early preheating of the carby, as my cars always start up in the comfort of my garage.  In fact, with my cars, I usually completely block off the exhaust crossovers when rebuilding my engines.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

sturner50502

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 07, 2020, 04:05:07 AM
G'day Steve,

Firstly, the fitting near the Thermostat housing is the Sensor for the Coolant Temperature.

The passage in front of the Primary Ports in the Intake Manifold is part of the Exhaust Crossover that transfers exhaust gases from one cylinder head to the other, under the Carby, and is there to aid in engine warm-up.

In most cases, that passage will be blocked up, and if you need to, it can be cleaned out, and it is also another reason for the stainless steel plate that is sandwiched between the Carby and the Manifold, including a heat-proof gasket with the matching passage to isolate the passage from the carby.   Nothing to do with Anti Pollution controls, but driving when cold.

Bruce. >:D

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for the info. I cleaned out the holes...they were plugged. But, living in California, I likely don't really need the ports cleaned out... based on what your saying. I appreciate the info though.
Steve Turner
1969 De Ville Convertible
1989 Brougham d'Elegance

The Tassie Devil(le)

Now that you will be having it working again as it was designed, it is most important that you use the correct gaskets, in their correct order, otherwise you will end up with a distorted carby base, and leaking exhaust gas into the engine bay.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

James Landi

Steve,

As you likely know, Bruce is clearly an expert on  Cadillacs... Apparently, that under "the Carby"  exhaust cross-over had a limited service life, as my  experience and few data points reveal the same issue of solidly blocked passages.  There's a good deal of discussion on this forum about  gasoline vapor lock, and I can recall as a far more adventurous young man, taking the top section of a 56 Cadillac  carburetor apart on a hot engine and discovering that the gas was boiling.   From then on, I wondered about the efficacy of those heat induction passages.   I came to the conclusion,and I emphasize this is only my opinion, that the design put the emphasis on quick warm ups and frequent short, in town trips. Avoiding Vapor lock and generally hard starting in hot weather are issues that Bruce is helping you avoid.         Happy day,   James