1939 Cadillac Convertible Sedan #23 of 36 Built

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

I dropped the oil pan today and I was hoping to find a map to Jimmy Hoffa's final resting place....I did not.....

This is what I found....Can you 346 experts weigh in and tell me if this motor is cooked or can it be repaired......It's too bad because this is the original motor that came with the car....

These look like pieces of the block and not just a lifter and head breakage...

Mike

[James Landi]

Oh Mike,   Looks like the one or two cam followers (lifters)broke off pieces of the block.  I'm hardly an expert, but my thinking is that if the valves were stuck in the block, the push rods would be bent.    I've had experience with that kind of situation...where the cam follower (lifter) pushes on an "frozen" valve stem and bends the push rod --certainly not uncommon with a stuck engine.  Never seen a cam follower breaking out of the engine casting, and, I hope I am very wrong.   James

[harry s]

James, While you were reply so was I. Here goes with mine:
  I'm going to take a WAG and say the pieces came from a failed or fractured lifter carrier. The round one is obviously the lifter. The two pieces with the break at the nipple appear to be the end of the carrier body. The small round steel piece looks like the plug which goes into the nipple and the partial disc piece looks like a part of the base of the lifter housing. It also looks like part of that housing is fused onto the bottom of the lifter.
     I would say the next step is to pull the manifolds and valley covers which will allow access the lifters. It will be interesting to see what caused that failure and if or not there is any other damage. The good news is if this is what happened the block should be OK. There could be a cam lobe wipe out also.     Harry

[DaveZ]

Hi Mike,
That is the lifter body. One of the end ones. Here is a picture of where it broke, and the flat round bit is the bottom of the lifter that rides up against the camshaft. As recommended take off the manifolds and inspect it and the rest. You can easily remove the lifter bodies one at a time buy rotating the engine until all lifters on one block are fully down. Don't mix up the the hydraulic pistons. The bit with the spring on it that goes in the lifter. If still good you may able to clean and reuse. I have a boat load of lifter blocks so don't worry about the broken block.

Dave

[DaveZ]

Darn....and now the pictiure.

[DaveZ]

Just to clarify these are the parts you want to keep together:-)  What happened to your engine was the valve was stuck and when the camshaft came round it pushed up the lifter. The valve wouldn't move so it took the path of least resistance:-(

[James Landi]

Hi David,  unfamiliar with the details but fascinated... so the lifter gallery is separate and can be replaced?  Are you suggesting that nothing is broken?  The lifter was pushed up and over the top and fell through the gallery into the oil pan?  The valve is rusted in place in the block?   Assuming that the valve spring and stem and keeper are visible once the engine is opened from the top, can he work on freeing up the valve from below? Appreciate learning more, James

[DaveZ]

There are four lifter blocks and each has four lifters. One of the lifter blocks is broken. You can take the lifter blocks with the lifters out after removing the manifold galley covers and oil feeds.  You can take keepers and springs off the valves, but to remove the valves the heads have to come off.

[James Landi]

Thank you David for taking the time to  explain these challenges in more detail.  I recall mechanics performing "carbon and valve" jobs, and carefully resurfacing the block for proper "seating."  I had no idea that the cam lifter followers were in separate, removable, and most importantly replaceable components.  Fascinating engineering.   Gratefully,  James

[59-in-pieces]

I have been out of pocket for a long time but came back to catch up and focused on this post.

I have wanted for many years a 4 door convertible of this vintage but never got the opportunity to buy one - the ones that came up during that earlier part of my efforts were all restored and out of this guy's reach.

I love to do things myself - turn wrenches - and have really enjoyed following your restoration process in such detail - and I'm a picture freak - so more helpful.

I recognize some of the posters who have experience with these cars and have no nonsense suggestions for solutions because they have been there and done that - in my book nothing is better than hands on.

Please keep posting - i'm hooked.

Have fun,
Steve B.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Thanks guys for all the info and the help....I'm starting to learn what happened.....Lifter holders isn't something I expected to hear about.....The shop manual isn't all that clear....but it's nothing like holding the broken parts in your hand to help understand....

Before the oil pan drop and the broken parts...I was doing points, rotor, condenser etc..... How on earth do you guys lean over these huge fenders and work on these cars??

My topside creeper is just about useless, as it doesn't get you over the motor far enough....there has to be a better way....setting the point gap with the soles of my shoes pointing at the ceiling!!.....end of the day and the next morning I felt like I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!!

With the breakage now kinda known....I took the front fenders off the car...Alot more easier to work on the motor now....I can start getting at those intake & exhaust manifolds & valley pans to see how much shrapnel is in there....The old car looks like an angry bird!!

Next step is we go inside deep....

Mike

[Roger Zimmermann]

It seems that you had not too much trouble to take the myriad screws out!

[James Landi]

Mike, your pictures are incredible...as mentioned above, it all came apart, and the scale of the car at your camera angle is huge.  Really looking forward to your explorations into the top end of the motor.  With any luck, your snake oil is still hard at work.  James

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

It seems that you had not too much trouble to take the myriad screws out!

Yes Roger, I got lucky or I'm getting older and have a lot more patients with liberal use of PB Blaster......I didn't break 1 bolt off the whole front end....for a car that spent it's life in a moist rusty place, everything unbolted with little fanfare....

Today I started slowly tapping those intake / exhaust manifold bolts and the 3 or 4 I tried were turning and not breaking....The breakage I'm going to find is inside the motor...haha...

Mike, your pictures are incredible...as mentioned above, it all came apart, and the scale of the car at your camera angle is huge.  Really looking forward to your explorations into the top end of the motor.  With any luck, your snake oil is still hard at work.  James

Thanks James, the car is BIG....141 inch wheel base, big fenders, big doors......I remember when the car came into the garage I sat in the back seat....It seemed I was 8 ft away from the steering wheel!!

It won't be long I hope, to be well into the internals under those manifolds....

Check these pictures out....somebody put 1940 directional lights on the front fenders and wired them up....I'm going to keep them on the car because they're nice to have and I like the way they look.....you guys remember back in the late 70s there was a horror movie call Alien with Sigorney Weaver....these lights look just like that Alien's head....

https://www.filmsite.org/series-alien.html

Grille was broken and bent when I got the car so I'll have to make a decent repair that looks good....

So far so good....

Mike

[DaveZ]

Leaning over the fenders is always a dream; even if you take the side mounts off. Any work I do on the dist I always take it out. It is easier, you can adjust the points much easier and it only goes back in one way:-)

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

And it goes back in without losing the timing.  Still wise to check it but it will be off only the slop in a 1/4" bolt.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Today I started slowly tapping those intake / exhaust manifold bolts and the 3 or 4 I tried were turning and not breaking....The breakage I'm going to find is inside the motor...haha...

I know the feeling about bolt coming out without too much drama; I experienced that with my '56 Biarritz.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

I took the exhaust and intake manifolds off.....boy the mice were busy bringing in all kinds of food up & into this tunnel complex.....

I had to do alot of shop vacuuming before I pulled up the valley pans.....

The next time I say that all the bolts are coming out without fanfare.....somebody should kick me in the chestnuts.....

This exhaust manifold broke off 2 studs....can I cut these off and drill them out by going all the way through?.....I would then remove broken studs and then thread all the way down.....then use some high temp Permatex on the new bolts?.....will that be ok?...

And can someone weigh in a tell me if these gaskets I pull out of the motor are original or after market....I want to know if somebody has been in here before me....

Mike

[DaveZ]

Hi Mike,
   
One way....If there is still enough of the stud sticking up clean it off and turn on a lathe a larger bolt the inside diameter equal to the outer diameter of the stud. Make it snug. Drill a pilot hole straight through the in bolt on the lathe. Stick that on top of the broken stud and use it as a guide to drill into the broken stud. Remove and step drill the rest. Get as close as you can without damaging the threads. Use a torch to heat what is left of the thread on the stud then pick the threads out. There is space between the end of the broken bolt and the bottom of the casting so you'll know when you punch through.

You could also try heating it up and taking vice grips or stud extractor and unscrewing it, but you risk losing what is left to use the above method to do it.
Worse case you would have to drill it out without a guide by eye:-(  Been done, but you have to be patients and careful.

[harry s]

To add to what Dave said, if the removal does get off track or once the remainder of the bolt is removed and the threads are deteriorated which is often the case Helicoils work well, Good luck.
Mike, I had to laugh when you mentioned the mice taking up residence in the manifolds. I had the same experience. Those little devils traveled up the tailpipe through the muffler and had about 10 years supply of seeds packed in.     Harry