Approved replacement for the soon to be phased out R-134a.

Started by "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364, January 24, 2023, 10:13:30 PM

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"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Extra, Extra, read all about it. De Ja vue all over again. An approved replacement for R-134A has hit the market place. It is R-456A. Currently selling widely in Europe and available on this continent. Currently priced at 340.36 Euros for 12 Kg. That's a bargain priced of only $14.05 per pound.  This is probably one ho's price will go up since 45% of the blend is the R-134A which will be discontinued.
I am certainly glad that I am retired and not still on the Hamster wheel that the refrigeration industry seems (to me) to have become.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

fishnjim

Kid, I don't think it's the industry that's the problem.   
It's the environmental bureaucrats and UN ozone "police" out there trying to "save the planet", per se.
Anything with a first number 4 or 5 is a blend per the naming protocol.

When I retired 1234YF was hot and heavy, but as far as I know hasn't made the panacea splash that was expected.  And two biggies tied up the market.   All the equipment coming out of China into the domestic market has cheaper flammable refrigerants, so somethings not level in the field.
The company I worked for built a 134a plant and it was well over 10 years before it broke even with all the shenanigans in the industry back then trying to decide on "the" replacement.  Then suddenly the price spiked and things eased.   So it's a game, not of skill, but luck apparently and marketing and political positioning.

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Jim,
I don't know if it is the first time, but I agree with you.  Just to add some more insanity into the mix, R-456A is a blend of R-134A and HFO-1234yf. How about that. Again, this is suppposed to be a replacement for R-34A in the "older" systems that use it.  As an Engineer who's specialty is in refrigeration and air conditioning most of what goes on with these refrigerants clearly indicates a real lack of understanding on the part of those who legislate these changes.
When R-11 and R-12 were being phased out operators were supposed to just buy new equipment. Most of the knowledgeable ones just "tightened up" their refrigeration systems and MANY are still in operation some 50 years later.
Fret no, this will continue to go. Again, glad to be retired and out of the mix.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

55 CDV Fan 82


Will that mean a system needs to be fully converted over similar to how R-12 units were converted to R-134a?  Luckily my 55 still uses R12 but boy is that stuff $$$$$ (100 a pound at my mechanic).
Tim

CLC Member #30850

1955 Cadillac Coupe Deville "Evelyn"
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado Deluxe
1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible "Joyce"

Past Cars

1937 LaSalle Coupe
1940 Chevrolet Coupe
1941 Ford 11Y truck
1954 Buick Special 48D
1955 Packard Clipper Super Panama
1957 Cadillac Series 62 Coupe
1962 VW Bug
1962 Dodge 880
1966 Mercury Montclair
1968 Chevy Chevelle SS
1968 Plymouth Barracuda
1977 Lincoln

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Supposedly that will be a"drop in" for systems ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR R-134A. $100/pound is probably about where ALL the replacement refrigerants will end up in the ext few years.
Greg Suras
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

79 Eldorado

R12 destroyed the Ozone layer due to attachment of Chlorine which was particularly bad because the Chlorine acted like a catalyst so it wasn't a "one and done" reaction. Result we fry due to UV radiation.

R134a - Has a higher GWP - Global Warming potential so a relatively high contribution to green house gases. Result we cook the earth as the incoming solar radiation wavelength changes like in a greenhouse.

1234yf - Much lower GWP but breaks down into a "forever chemical": Result: We poison ourselves as it gets into the food and water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_organic_pollutant
"Persistent organic pollutants (POPs), sometimes known as "forever chemicals", are organic compounds that are resistant to environmental degradation through chemical, biological, and photolytic processes."

So a mixture of R134a and 1234yf does not sound like a new or a good solution. That's why "natural refrigerants" like propane are still being considered in some parts of the world. Propane has a very low GWP, contains no Chlorine and is not a "Forever chemical". It is of course flammable but if you replace R12 or R134a with what seems to be the automotive drop-in, a mix of propane and isobutane, the total charge is cut by 40 to 50% of the original charge. So yes it's flammable but you aren't using much and it's not the only dangerous/flammable substance in a car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HC-12a

Moody

Man, I lucked out buying 18 cans of DuPont R12 for $150 awhile back. Hopefully I can bypass 134 all together. Maybe 456 will work better than 134.
Moody

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

If I did not make it clear, R-456A IS NOT INTENDED TO REPLACE R-134A THAT HAS BEEN CHARGED INTO A PREVIOUSLY R-12 SYSTEM.  IT IS FOR SYSTEMS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR R-134A
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Moody

Yeah, I missed that detail. Thanks for the clarification.
Moody

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

I believe that if you do the research you will find the vast majority of the phased out chemicals (R—11, 12, 22 and 134A) were used as spray can propellants, foam blowing agents solvents and "dusters. Refrigeration took the hit
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

bcroe

Greg, thanks for the update. 

When I installed a junk yard recovered AC in a 64 Mercury,
R12 was a dollar a pound. First I saw the cans going to 15
oz, 14 oz.  Then huge price increases.  Finally they told us
to throw away the old stuff and use something new that they
had current patents on.  Now they are doing it again. 

It is pretty obvious that the old idea of serving customers at
the lowest cost practical has been replaced with as much
profit as possible, this in many industries.  There are a lot of
reasons given to justify changes, including why we can not
use propane-butane, they are not the actual motivation.  It
did not prevent me from using it.  Bruce Roe

EAM 17806

Quote from: Moody on January 25, 2023, 09:11:25 PMMan, I lucked out buying 18 cans of DuPont R12 for $150 awhile back. Hopefully I can bypass 134 all together. Maybe 456 will work better than 134.
DAVID:  You lucked IN not OUT!
Ev Marabian

1976 Cadillac Coupe DeVille, 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic, 1990 Pontiac Bonneville and 1996 Buick Skylark

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Hey I lucked out last year by buying a 30 pound "jug" for only $1,200.00
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

jwwseville60

I just bought a 30lb R12 can. Well worth it.
The US Military has millions of pounds of R12, you just have to buy the big 30-60 lb cans.
They are NOT going to convert the thousands of trucks and vehicles. No way.

The story I got from some US Army veterans was that R134A was cheaper to make than R12.
Thats the real reason for the change, not so much the environment.
1960 Eldorado Seville, Copper
1961 CDV, gold
1964 Eldorado, Turquoise
1963 De Ville Station Wagon Vista roof, silver blue
1959 Sedan Deville flat top, tan
1947 Caddy Sedanette 62, black

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#14
The story I got long ago was that Dupont's patent had expired on R12 and lobbied to have it banned. R134a was supposed to solve all issues where R12 was concerned but now 134A is a problem. Regardless I'm not buying any of this shell game nonsense and none of the dire weather predictions made decades ago ever came to pass. I place little stock in paid liars masquerading as scientists no matter how eloquent their sermons.   

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

A whole lot of urban myths around the phasing in and out of ALL refrigerants that seem to have their origin "in the either",  it is what it is and just like a "few" other issues living with it, for me (although I might not agree with the outcome) is a whole lot easier on my serenity than regurgitating the issue. 
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

2manycars

I gutted out the entire Climate Control system from my 64 and had the entire thing rebuilt by Original Air in Tampa. Since my car will reside in Florida, and my friend here in NJ has R12 at his shop, I elected to stick with R12 on the rebuild. Only the steel line to the condenser is not redone, since it only needs a flush with lacquer thinner. Had the heater recored. In the end it's good that I stuck with R12, because the evaporator was bad, and you can't get a new one the correct physical size. The new one is just a bit smaller, which means less capacity. I had to stuff that end of the box with dumdum so it wouldn't have air leaking past it instead of through it. End of Feb it goes in to be charged up. I don't know the cost yet, but whatever it is, it gets done.
1964 Coupe de Ville
My Current Projects:
1957 Ford Thunderbird
1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS Convertible
My Special One:
2001 Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (bought it new)

79 Eldorado

Quote from: jwwseville60 on January 31, 2023, 01:41:08 PMThe story I got from some US Army veterans was that R134A was cheaper to make than R12.
Thats the real reason for the change, not so much the environment.
John,
That's absolutely not true. The R12 to R134a replacement took a Herculean effort. It was very difficult to find a lubricant which worked well and would replace simple mineral oil for R12. Compressor bearings had to be improved and virtually every GM condenser needed to have better performance to make the R134a system function similar to the R12 systems they replaced. The person who believed it was all about cost to make the refrigerant was misinformed.

Scott

jwwseville60

Scott

You may be right.
It went from low pressure R12 to high pressure R134A.
But something doesn't add up considering the environment.
1960 Eldorado Seville, Copper
1961 CDV, gold
1964 Eldorado, Turquoise
1963 De Ville Station Wagon Vista roof, silver blue
1959 Sedan Deville flat top, tan
1947 Caddy Sedanette 62, black