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1968 Eldorado 472 oil pan gasket and freeze plugs replacement - engine overhaul

Started by IcebearLars, September 04, 2016, 02:36:45 AM

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Roger Zimmermann

1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

IcebearLars

Hi Roger,

thanks for clarification - does that just gets off loosening the bolts to the headers?

Roger Zimmermann

At what I can read in the shop manual, yes. Be careful about the seal; I don't know if they can be reused.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

The Tassie Devil(le)

The sealing rings for the Cross-over piping is what I believe to be a piece of Asbestos lagging.

When I removed the ones from my '500, the sealing rings were good, but were only going to be re-used to seal the plug.   I couldn't get the correct size Welsh Plugs when I did the job.

The retaining clip is seen in your photo with the single bolt holding it in place, over the top of the AIR Pump Bracket, and I cannot remember what was holding the other side in.

I did some deconstruction to the crossover piece to retain the ends as plugs and they just sit there.   I replaced the Crossover as I went to HEI Ignition, and the distributor would not fit with the earlier type crossover.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

TJ Hopland

On the water pump question yes its the 1/4-20 bolts that only thread into the 'tin' cover that are easy to strip.  You thread a spare bolt into the cover then thread the nut onto that bolt.  This aligns the existing threads to the nuts threads and holds it in place for welding.

On the AIR crossover was it a nickel or dime that someone figured out fits as a plug?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

IcebearLars

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 23, 2023, 07:32:54 AMThe sealing rings for the Cross-over piping is what I believe to be a piece of Asbestos lagging.

Thanks Bruce - will have a closer look at the weekend and will see if I can reuse them or rebuilt out of some temp resistant paper pressed seal material if not reusable.

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 23, 2023, 07:32:54 AMI did some deconstruction to the crossover piece to retain the ends as plugs and they just sit there.  I replaced the Crossover as I went to HEI Ignition, and the distributor would not fit with the earlier type crossover.

Puzzled here - that means the crossover with that valve connecting to the air pump is not needed or did you connect only the one side to the air pump? Or did you delete the air pump on yours?

IcebearLars

Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 23, 2023, 02:04:01 PMOn the water pump question yes its the 1/4-20 bolts that only thread into the 'tin' cover that are easy to strip. 

Thanks TJ - will check what I spare nuts I have at home since the SAE sizes are not common in Germany - worst case I have to order them.

TJ Hopland

Quote from: IcebearLars on March 24, 2023, 02:30:45 AMThanks TJ - will check what I spare nuts I have at home since the SAE sizes are not common in Germany - worst case I have to order them.

Make sure you have some extra bolts to use to align and hold the nuts for welding.  You don't want to damage the originals with weld spatter. If you are ordering some get cheap ones.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

scottsdaleaz

Quote from: IcebearLars on March 16, 2023, 04:51:26 AM..trans chain cover on the back...

Hijacking the thread... i happen to be working in parallel with Lars on my 1975.  I know my tranny shaft seal is leaking and will do the o ring or shaft seal bushing before assembly. Regarding the cork seal on the chain cover.. im not sure its leaking.. but the consensus is now is the time to take it off and redo without gasket using the sealant?  Or if it is not broke...???


1975 Eldorado
Member Number: 34629

TJ Hopland

Can you tell if its been done before?  I would be looking real close at what ever gasket or sealer was used to look for any signs of issues.  Its possible someone has done it more recently using materials that will still hold up and in that case if there are no signs of an issue I may be tempted to leave it.  I have run into stuff like that where someone pretty much glued it and I did so much damage trying to get it apart to fix a problem that didn't exist that it ended up leaking. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: scottsdaleaz on March 24, 2023, 05:45:19 PMHijacking the thread... i happen to be working in parallel with Lars on my 1975.  I know my tranny shaft seal is leaking and will do the o ring or shaft seal bushing before assembly. Regarding the cork seal on the chain cover.. im not sure its leaking.. but the consensus is now is the time to take it off and redo without gasket using the sealant?  Or if it is not broke...???

My chain cover was leaking, and as I couldn't access a replacement cork gasket, I searched the sealing world, and came up with Loctite 5900.   This sealant is compatible with Oils, including Automatic Transmission Fluid and is widely used in the Mining and Manufacturing industry.

Used is to replace the cork in my '72 Eldo, and it hasn't leaked since.

The secret is to clean both surfaces with a good cleaner like Brakleen, which leaves no residue, after you have made sure that the tin flange is straight and flat.

Carefully run a bead of Loctite 5900 on one surface, (Don't go overboard) and bring the flanges together.   (To aid alignment, I use a couple of long threads, with no head as alignment pins) and install bolts.   Do Not Overtighten.

Bruce. >:D 
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

IcebearLars

Hi folks,

some impressions of the weekend where I disassebled the heads and the oil pan to get into that bugger - let me read what you see on the pics - everything from pretty normal to take care/has to be overhauled etc. are welcome

Valve covers off

IMG_4797.jpg

IMG_4803.jpg

Intake Manifold off

IMG_4804.jpg

IMG_4805.jpg

IMG_4806.jpg

IMG_4810.jpg   

Timing Chain (new steel one is ready to install)

IMG_4813.jpg

IMG_4814.jpg

IMG_4815.jpg 

Oil pan off

IMG_4818.jpg
 

IcebearLars

What do you think about the shape of the front motor mount - can that be reused or has it to be revulcanized in the US?
If so which service/company should I use?
Read somewhere that they need the core and it takes up to 3 months - if I have to to this I rather ship it asap to get it back in time not holding up the reassembling of the engine/tranny.

The two tranny mounts at the back of the tranny look flawless - guess the constant oil penetration of the motor mount brought it to the current state.


IMG_4826.jpg

IMG_4827.jpg 

IMG_4828.jpg

IMG_4829.jpg
 


IcebearLars

Next up is getting the heads disassembled (valves and springs off) and the pistons out of that bugger  - cleaning everything and getting the valves inspected/grinded and get them new valve stem seals, inspecting the pistons/bores, cleaning them and changing the piston rings.

One thing which broke during the disassembly was that AIR connection pipe on one side - how should I tackle that to get it in working order again?
One side came right off but the other I was not able to get out and the part in the head ripped off the rest - here I need urgent advise what to follow up

If I can delete this connection I found the place where the "plug solution with a dime" was mentioned - but later in that write up it was mentioned that two 11/16" freeze plugs will work the same way.

IMG_4790.jpg

IMG_4791.jpg

IMG_4796.jpg   


IcebearLars

And before I forget - the spring of the oil pump is what I can see based on the specs in the shop manual way to short (think it has shortened over time).

The spec says it should be uncompressed between 2.77" (70,36mm) and 2.89" (73,41mm)
Mine has 63mm with is 7mm short of the lower limit in the shop manual.

Guess I will right away order a full overhaul set or just a new spring since the rest of the oil pump especially the gears look alright to me.

Can someone advise on where to buy the single spring for the oil pump?

The Tassie Devil(le)

You are lucky to catch the Cam Gear before it completely destroyed itself.   Wouldn't have been too long before all the Nylon would have come away from the teeth.

The Engine Mount exchange doesn't take that long.   I had one done some months ago, and it was something like a week exchange.   It took the longest to get a core to them (Steele Rubber) as having to send mine would have meant that my car would have been off the road for longer.   In your case, you could just send yours, and by the time the reconditioned one comes back, you will still be working on your engine.

If you don't need the AIR system, I would be removing it completely, and plugging up the holes in the heads.

Someone may have a new Spring for your Oil Pump.

My eyes may be deceiving me, but the end of the Rocker Arm pivot in the picture of the end of the head with the broken pipe seems to not be in alignment.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

IcebearLars

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 27, 2023, 06:28:35 AM... In your case, you could just send yours, and by the time the reconditioned one comes back, you will still be working on your engine.

Bruce - spot on - that's what I thought as well - should be back while I am still fighting the engine and if done with that the tranny - so will contact them right away and have some time left to get it back in time  :P

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 27, 2023, 06:28:35 AM... If you don't need the AIR system, I would be removing it completely, and plugging up the holes in the heads.

What about the pump itself - does it hurt if she is still sitting in the usual spot not connected to anything since I don't want to get down in that AIR pump deletion/deletion kit/70s pulley rabbit hole?
Let it sit there and turn idle will at least keep the routing for the belts as they are today.

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 27, 2023, 06:28:35 AMMy eyes may be deceiving me, but the end of the Rocker Arm pivot in the picture of the end of the head with the broken pipe seems to not be in alignment.

I thought the same when I disassembled the rocker arm assemblies but it looks like they do what they have to do. But thanks for calling that out - will keep it in mind while assembling and check on any wear of the rocker arm supports and rocker arms the time being.

Roger Zimmermann

For about two years, I removed the vanes from the AIR pump installed in my '72 de Ville and I'm using it as necessary pulley. It's relatively easy to do; I did a search in Google like "how to render the AIR pump inoperative" and I found a small video explaining the various steps do do it.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

IcebearLars

Have searched in several terms but was not able to find anything about cleaning out the AIR pump and use it just as an idler pulley.

Maybe I have overseen something but why can't I just get a shorter belt around the remaining pulleys in the route of the belt including the AIR pump like in the pic below - is it because this shorter belt can't be tensioned since the tension mechanism is with the AIR pump bracket?

2023-03-28_07h42_59.jpg

Roger Zimmermann

1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101