News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

429 valves and rockers question

Started by Matti R, May 08, 2021, 04:37:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Matti R

Hello!
I am investigating 1964 429 engine which I bought as dismantled. It is said to be smoking in driving and has been stored as parts for a year. It is most probably 65500 miles driven.
The only damaged part found so far is the top of exhaust valve of cylinder #5. The top has been worn so much that the rocker has been pressing valve locks as well. Respective rocker is worn as well, much more than others. And exhaust rocker #6 is worn as well, and exhaust #8.
Then questions:
1. What damage could this cause? I can think that valve lift gets a bit smaller than it should, but so what?
2. Is that common for Cadillac 429 exhaust valves to worn from the top, especially cylinders #5 and #6? Maybe there is less oil.

This is my first V8 engine project. I have Shop manual.

Big thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Matti
CLC #33333
67 DeVille convertible Sudan beige
79 Seville
64 Sedan DeVille
66 Calais Coupe

The Tassie Devil(le)

Looks like either a soft valve stem, or a lack of lubricant.

Never seen just one valve go like this.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

2manycars

Two of the valves were replaced in my engine due to this same condition. The rocker arms for those valves were pretty hammered too. I got rebuilt rocker shaft assemblies from Kanter to take care of that part. Took several months to get them. I do not know what the root cause was, but that engine was a filthy leaking mess. Probably run low on oil too many times.
1964 Coupe de Ville
My Current Projects:
1957 Ford Thunderbird
1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS Convertible
My Special One:
2001 Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (bought it new)

savemy67

Hello Matti,

Proximally, less valve lift (as a result of a shorter valve stem) is not too critical.  You would get less efficiency from that cylinder.  Ultimately, all that worn metal went into the oil, potentially increasing engine wear.

As Bruce indicated, there was probably too little oil, but not as a function of engine design, but as a result of poor maintenance.  The engine is a little hotter at the cylinders closer to the carburetor, so if the oil and filter have not been changed routinely, and the oil contains contaminants, it might be prone to more rapid sludge buildup at the assemblies closer to the center of the engine.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Caddylackn

Three things that I can think of:

1.  The pushrods are hollow and oil is supposed to flow up through them from the lifter to lubricate the upper valve train.  Check to make sure these push rod tubes are not clogged with sludge restricting oil flow to that cylinder's valve train.
2.  Lack of zinc in modern motor oil caused premature wear of a high pressure contact part.
3.  Low oil pressure and flow.
'61 Fleetwood 60- owned for 31 years
'61 Series 62 2-door - sold
'64 Series 62 2-door -sold
'67 Sedan De Ville - sold
'74 Eldorado Convertible - sold

russ austin

Push rods are not hollow.   Push rods are solid.  Oil flows up around special bolts holding the rocker assembly down.  Oil passes into the rocker shaft and into the rocker arms.  Oil passes out to run down the rocker arm to lube the rocker tip and valve.

You can buy the new shafts and rocker arms on ebay.  Rebuilding the assembly is a piece of cake, just follow the shop manual to index the rocker arms onto the shafts correctly.  Reuse the mount blocks as they do not wear, and springs.
R.Austin

Matti R

#6
Big thanks for comments and advice!
I plan to replace the parts with unusual wear, so 3 rocker arms and 4 exhaust valves. I thought that I will clean the shaft and all the parts. Why should I replace it if it is in good condition?
I have no idea about the maintenance during 57 years. All I know is that engine has not been used for last 10 years, and I received the engine already dismantled.
I am considering installing oil pump repair kit just to make sure there is proper oil pressure. Oil pump looks quite good now though.
Oil is entering to rocker shaft from one end and leaves from another end. Therefore it is interesting that the rockers and valves in the MIDDLE are the most worn. I would expect that happen at the end of shaft. Sounds reasonable that higher temperature in the middle could cause the sludge buildup.
Best regards,
Matti
CLC #33333
67 DeVille convertible Sudan beige
79 Seville
64 Sedan DeVille
66 Calais Coupe

The Tassie Devil(le)

Looking at what is visible in the picture, the side of the housing is extremely gouged and should be replaced.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Matti R

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on May 11, 2021, 07:40:58 AM
Looking at what is visible in the picture, the side of the housing is extremely gouged and should be replaced.

Bruce. >:D
Yes you are right, thanks.
Best regards,
Matti
CLC #33333
67 DeVille convertible Sudan beige
79 Seville
64 Sedan DeVille
66 Calais Coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Matti
IF you intend to replace the timing cover/oil pump housing be sure it is the same year as the engine. The 429 covers look the same but they ARE different, and all now very expensive.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Matti R

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on May 11, 2021, 03:04:20 PM
Matti
IF you intend to replace the timing cover/oil pump housing be sure it is the same year as the engine. The 429 covers look the same but they ARE different, and all now very expensive.
Greg Surfas
Thanks Greg, this is the info I was looking for. Actually, I was afraid of that. I found some in eBay with price of 677 USD + freight and customs. Not that hurry. Yet.
Best regards,
Matti
CLC #33333
67 DeVille convertible Sudan beige
79 Seville
64 Sedan DeVille
66 Calais Coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

You see what I was hinting at. They are. Very pricey. Why don't you pull the gears out of your pump an take a couple of picture of the housing. It might not be that badly worn.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: Matti R on May 11, 2021, 03:40:54 PM
Thanks Greg, this is the info I was looking for. Actually, I was afraid of that. I found some in eBay with price of 677 USD + freight and customs. Not that hurry. Yet. 
No matter what the price is, it is still cheaper than modifying the system and going for the Dry-sump method.

This way of mounting the oil pump is one of the poore4r designs that GM did, but one has to remember that these cars weren't built to last forever.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   But, there was an even worse design to come from GM, and that was the HT4100.
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Matti
Take the pictures of the oil pump recess. I e seen som pretty horrible looking one work adequately. If it looks like it may possibly work you can put in a new set of gears, but he. The engine is together, prime the oil pump and see what kind of pressure you get. Don't forget to pack the pump cavity with  Vaseline.
Greg Surfas

Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Matti R

Hi
Some photos attached. There is some wear and tear in the edges of the gears. The grooves in pump housind are not deep. I think I will use this with new gears, and one day when I have all pieces together, I will see what kind of pressure it creates.  Some kind of coating could be one option to repair the pump housing.
Best regards,
Matti
CLC #33333
67 DeVille convertible Sudan beige
79 Seville
64 Sedan DeVille
66 Calais Coupe

The Tassie Devil(le)

Doesn't look that bad in these pictures.

I would be using it again.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

russ austin

Take a micrometer to the rocker shafts and all of the rocker arms and check for out of tolerance wear.  The specs should be in the shop manual.

same with the front engine cover, check with a micrometer. The wear happens where the oil pump gear shaft goes through the cover.   It can be bushed out. ( having a bushing put in. )

R.Austin

cadlove

May I add that it takes very little in terms of wear in the oil pump to reduce oil pressure. Cadillac had a problem in the middle 1970s where two of those paper thin oil pump gaskets were used instead of one. It caused, in brand new cars, the oil light to flicker while idling, sitting at traffic lights and naturally upset owners. Cadillac has, had, a very good Product Information Reporting system to stop trouble as soon as possible.

The pictures show terrible gouges around the walls of both vane positions and two circular wear patterns on the floor of the oil pump? It is therefore fair to assume the vanes may have wear on them, thus, in small tolerance terms, an amalgamation of wear on the entire pump?

Given that many owners probably didn't have their cars serviced properly and/or possibly check oil regularly, it wouldn't too much driving in city traffic (at lower oil pressure) to cause excess wear.

Regarding any comparison between the 429 and the HT4100, there isn't any. The 4100 should have been stopped before it got out?

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Matti
Your front cover (oil pump cavity) looks well within reasonable conditions. Just get the new gears and when you put it together be sure and pack it with Vaseline. Also be extra careful to get the gasket between the pick up tube and the block on correctly. I think the oil pump is a non issue.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Matti R

I measured the clearance between pump body and gears with result 0.004", and worn limit is 0.005 according to shop manual. My plan is to use this with new gears, and make final decision after priming the pump.
Best regards,
Matti
CLC #33333
67 DeVille convertible Sudan beige
79 Seville
64 Sedan DeVille
66 Calais Coupe