‘41 Cad Starter - Flywheel - Hydramatic HELP! Please

[AdamS]

Hi Folks:
Looking for some sage advice, here. I have a new to me '41 conv Coupe. I drove the car when I was in Seattle and had it shipped to me here in NH. It turned over slower that I thought it should, but attributed that to batteries that may not have been up to snuff.  Aside from some issues with the transport company, I am unable to get this car running. My criteria as some of you may have seen in an ad I was running for a long time, is a car that is 99% turnkey. I have a Pierce-Arrow that turned out to be far less than represented mechanically and so it's in the hospital getting open heart surgery. I didn't want another headache.

The issue is that the car turns over ever so slowly. The transport company left the battery cut-off switch on, the glove box open and the two Optima batteries in parallel where toast beyond recovery. I bought a six volt battery - whatever I could find at Batteries Plus, as an interim measure. I also adsed a 2/0 cable from the chassis ground point to the starter bolt.

I pulled the starter and found that the bearing housing around the pinion had been hitting the bolts around the perimeter of the flywheel - it's a Hydramatic. Took it to my trusted old-timer auto electric shop and he put in a new starter Bendix assembly and gave me the old one. See photo of me holding the old Bendix. He also spaced the new one as far back as possible.

I installed the updated starter and same deal, it struggles to turn over and I cannot start the engine. Plus the starter labored so much that the factory installed smoke escaped 🤯 so it's back to the starter shop.

In the photo, you will see the new Bendix and impressions of the bolt tips hitting the perimeter of the bearing causing it to drag, me thinks. Also a photo of the flywheel with bolts.

What I am looking for is:
1. Are the bolts on the flywheel's perimeter too long, causing them to hit the Bendix?

2. If not too long, os what you see in the photos 'normal'?

3. Other than Optima batteries, which I will have to mail order, what are y'all using for a 6v battery?

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

=Adam=

[J. Russo]

Adam,

I have two 6-volt batteries that I have used for my 1941 Series 63 Sedan. It also has a Hydra-Matic Transmission. I use one of the batteries as a spare. A DEKA 6 volt battery was highly recommended to me from a long time 1941 Cadillac owner. I also purchased a 6 volt battery from NAPA that works very well for me and I installed a battery cutoff switch. The cutoff switch I installed is mounted on the firewall with battery cables attached to it. The switch also has a key to turn it on and off. I purchased it from Summit Racing.

John

[Dave Shepherd]

I would start by pullong the plugs and see if the engine turns easily, either by hand or with the starter, could be(hope not) the engine is tight for some reason. How did the transport company load it, winch or it ran?

[V63]

Try shimming the starter (common with Chevrolet). The interference is an obvious problem

 Also try to bypass your battery cutoff switch, the light duty green knob ones are problematic.

The optima have the most cranking amps (power)  and I used (2) those in a v12 packard with perfection.

Too far Advanced timing will cause difficult cranking

[wheikkila]

You have some good advice here. I'm a firm believer in the optima batteries. They are pricey and sometimes hard to get. But, worth every penny.   I would start with shimming the starter. That is a item that will have to be repaired. Then I would check the other items.
                  Thanks Wayne

[AdamS]

I would start by pullong the plugs and see if the engine turns easily, either by hand or with the starter, could be(hope not) the engine is tight for some reason. How did the transport company load it, winch or it ran?

Dave:
I did remove the plugs and crank the engine - forgot to mention that. It spins over at about 100 mph when there's no compression.

OMG, the "well known, big name" transport company, what a saga. First the car was driven onto the fancy double decker transport trailer. Then it went to their warehouse where it sat for 2.5 weeks. They left the cut-off switch on so when the loaded it onto what they call 'enclosed' trailer is actually a soft-sided affair. Maybe fine for shipping new Hyundais. Anyhow, they said they pushed it onto that truck.

I will add here that the distributor cap was broken and the lower radiator hose was also removed, in addition to the Optimas being shot. I'd add pics here but don't see how to do that in a reply. 

[AdamS]

Try shimming the starter (common with Chevrolet). The interference is an obvious problem

 Also try to bypass your battery cutoff switch, the light duty green knob ones are problematic.

The optima have the most cranking amps (power)  and I used (2) those in a v12 packard with perfection.

Too far Advanced timing will cause difficult cranking

Thanks V63. This has a cut-off switch in the back side of the glove box. I am guessing that it's a POS. I will get a proper Cole  Hersee switch.

Timing is a bit hard to check just yet 'cause she ain't runnin'. The paint is so think on the damper that the markings are invisible. I can find TDC or close enough and marked the damper with a Sharpie, for now.

Where have I been all these years? Haven't needed to shim a starter until now. I think this one would need about 250-thou of shims to clear. Is that too much?

[Dave Shepherd]

250! Way to much to shim, you need another solution.

[wheikkila]

Wow 250 is a lot. I would have to ask if that is the correct starter for the car?

[Joe Jensen]

Adam:

Congratulations on your new to you 1941 convertable.  That is a very nice looking car.

What most concerns me is the bolt heads for the torus hitting the starter.  This should not be happening.  I can't tell if the bolts in you picture you attached are correct because they are damaged and worn.

I have attached a picture that shows the bolts it should have,from a Hydra-Matic service manual for a 1941.

I would replace those bolts one at a time and use a sealant on the threads.  Torque specs are in your shop manual.

Good luck!
Joe

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Could it possibly be that there is a spacer missing to keep the Starter Motor clear, or further forward, away from the flywheel?

I know that some makes use a spacer that has a rubber gasket to the block side to keep out unwanted dirt and the like from passing between the Starter Motor case and the block.

Or is the Bendix being pushed too far along the Bendix drive shaft to stop it going so deep?

Other GM Starter Motors have a pair of rings and a C Clip on the end of the shaft to stop that.   I have seen them being left off by unknowing people when putting Starter Motors back together.

The Shop Manual should show if something is meant to be there.

Bruce.

[jackworstell]

Are the flywheel-to-fluid coupling cover bolts installed backwards  ??

Has the HYdramatic been removed and re-installed at some point 

Jack Worstell   

[AdamS]

Adam:

Congratulations on your new to you 1941 convertable.  That is a very nice looking car.

What most concerns me is the bolt heads for the torus hitting the starter.  This should not be happening.  I can't tell if the bolts in you picture you attached are correct because they are damaged and worn.

I have attached a picture that shows the bolts it should have,from a Hydra-Matic service manual for a 1941.

I would replace those bolts one at a time and use a sealant on the threads.  Torque specs are in your shop manual.

Good luck!
Joe

Joe - OK, looking at that picture, it appears that the bolt tips should not extend past the surface of the ring gear. No surprise that this is a surprise, I guess.

I have 39-41 shop manuals on the way and I have the Hydramatic manual now.

One step at a time...

[AdamS]

Wow 250 is a lot. I would have to ask if that is the correct starter for the car?

I don't think any shims will be needed if the proper length fluid coupling cover bolts are utilized and the Bendix engagement throw is adjusted to clear the flywheel surface. We'll see.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

This is somewhat over my head but I will make a quick suggestion.
Ground. For a quick and dirty test, I suggest you take a jumper cable and run it from the ground post on the battery to a bolt on the starter then try it. If it spins faster under load then you can look at the grounding situation.
I also noticed you said the distributor cap was broken. Did it take a hit of some sort that would have bumped the timing? Maybe just unhook the coil wire and crank it. If it spins normally then you could look more into the timing issue.
It won't help the bolt problem but it may help diagnose the starter speed problem.
Good luck
Jeff R

[Bill Ingler #7799]

Adam: Once you have your cover bolt problem solved you should check your engine grounds as well as the proper gauge battery cables. Most times a slow cranking 6 volt Cadillac engine comes back to using both wrong gauge battery cables or to missing engine grounds. Look at the attached picture and notice the copper ground wire from the right front motor mount to frame. On a 41 you also should also have a short copper engine grounding wire from the right head, middle row, rear head bolt to a small screw in the engine fire wall. I also ground my battery cable to one of the three starter bolts. I also use a master disconnect switch between the battery and the starter solenoid. I use a 6 volt Optima battery and have not had any problems with it. Bill

[toybox]

I will check my spare starter tonight but it sounds like your missing the washer/ring on the end of the shaft that limits the runout of the Bendix. Tim

[AdamS]

This is somewhat over my head but I will make a quick suggestion.
Ground. For a quick and dirty test, I suggest you take a jumper cable and run it from the ground post on the battery to a bolt on the starter then try it. If it spins faster under load then you can look at the grounding situation.
I also noticed you said the distributor cap was broken. Did it take a hit of some sort that would have bumped the timing? Maybe just unhook the coil wire and crank it. If it spins normally then you could look more into the timing issue.
It won't help the bolt problem but it may help diagnose the starter speed problem.
Good luck
Jeff R

Jeff:

It turns over slowly with the ignition off using a test starter remote button, so the coil is effectively disconnected in this instance.

Also, I made a 2/0 cable that goes to the positive ground point on the frame, and there's also a 2/0 cable that point to the battery '+' post (albeit thru the cut-off switch). The 2/0 cable I made has a lug that goes to the lower starter bolt.

I am going to replace the cut-off switch with with an American-made Cole Hersee one. I suspect that the one in there is a cheapo plastic thing.

I am confident that thus starter thing is  a mechanical/friction/interference issue and not an electrical problem. Starter shop went thru it again and nothing cooked inside so, we'll dig further.

[AdamS]

Adam: Once you have your cover bolt problem solved you should check your engine grounds as well as the proper gauge battery cables. Most times a slow cranking 6 volt Cadillac engine comes back to using both wrong gauge battery cables or to missing engine grounds. Look at the attached picture and notice the copper ground wire from the right front motor mount to frame. On a 41 you also should also have a short copper engine grounding wire from the right head, middle row, rear head bolt to a small screw in the engine fire wall. I also ground my battery cable to one of the three starter bolts. I also use a master disconnect switch between the battery and the starter solenoid. I use a 6 volt Optima battery and have not had any problems with it. Bill

Bill:
I had installed a new braided ground strap from the pass side motor mount to the threaded hole in the frame. Paint scraped away on the block for a good connection. There was a thin 12v type battery cable there when I got he car. I swapped that out straight away.

[toybox]

 Hi Adam, Please don't be insulted here but you do have the positive bat terminal going to ground right? a simple and common mistake.  You should have cables of 1 or 2 gauge completing your starter circuit. That means a ground cable going from the poss. on the battery directly to a mounting bolt on the starter and feed cable going directly from the neg. terminal to the starter solenoid bat. terminal. Again these cables need to be 1 or 2 gauge. The flat braded cables work and look authentic but I have found them not to work as well as the round ones and the smaller braded  ones that go to the firewall and motor mounts are to pass current out from the engine block to those parts of the car . All the starter current needs to pass through the heavy gauge cables and take the shortest path with the least resistance. As for your clearance issues my 46 torus cover is a little different then yours so I will not say if your bolts are correct . They do look similar to mine and I didn't have time last night to check my spare starter for the spacer on the bendix shaft.  I will look after work today.  Tim