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radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]

Started by dochawk, September 07, 2022, 09:20:40 PM

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dochawk

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMSo you have determined that the power wiring is fine and its the control ground that is presumably controlled by the ECU isn't happening? 

I've determined that there is a bad ground to the relay coil for the passenger/primary relay.  Successfully shorting it to a good ground allows the relay to throw.  [for that matter, touching that ground with a 12v light probe when it should be off causes the relay to throw, as the other side is grounded when it should be off!]. There is a *very* weak connection, letting a feeble glow out of the indicator, so I assume it to be a bad wire.

I haven't a clue what went wrong with the secondary fan relay near the end.  I was in no mood for anything else, and just made another switch!  Maybe I'll peek tomorrow.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMHave you been able to either through the self diagnostics or scan tool see what temp the ECU thinks the engine is?  And or if its commanding the fan to turn on?

I think it has a good grasp on the temp, given when the idiot lights come on.

And it *is* sending the command to engage the relay, I've watched the voltage change.  It's just that the other end isn't properly grounded.


Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMNice on the road fix for bypassing the relays. 


Thanks.  It wasn't an accident that there was a Home Depot at hand; when things acted up, I knew that there was one in the same complex as the Del Taco my wife and I often stop at when passing through, which was only a few miles ahead.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMBefore you quit your day job and try to market it note that there are already such products on the market. 

thanks; I'll look into those for future use.  But landing at someplace that has such in stock is a bit tricker than a Home Depot!
 ;D

There is definitely a microcontroller under the hood in this car's future.  Which one will probably depend on how many IO pins.  I'll want inputs for coolant temp, block temp, spark/rpm, and a pair to monitor the fans (which will also need an output, probably, to flash an LED or some such).  I'll want outputs for both fans, water pump, and probably fuel pump.   And in the meantime, I'll probably come up with other things I want (speed will probably be better on a phone with GPS, so I doubt it).  Oh, like for the transmission, to see which gear it is in, and which it is *supposed* to be in (right now, it often fails to leave 2d, both for 3d and for back to 1st at a stop.).

If it's few enough inputs and outputs, there's wifi chip module that has enough IO lines left to use its spare computing power as a microcontroller.  [it's kind of odd to add wifi or bluetooth to an Arduino, as this generally means a 32 bit processor at maybe a couple of hundred MHz, so that an 8Mhz 8 bit cpu can communicate . . .{I like 8 bits, I can actually *understand* what is going on!}].

 
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

grr.

I'm suspecting heat damage.

320 miles from vegas to phoenix before the jumper failed (ground to primary relay coil).

Built switches to leave fans on when running, and blew out a bunch of coolant by forgetting to put radiator cap on  [put a yellow guy banging his head against a brick wall here . . .]

Another 100 miles to tucson, and block still at 210.

20 miles or so, and I heard a bit of boiling when I got out, but block at 210. 
Topped off before returning hope, but heard boiling from *inside* car.

Cap wasn't all the way tightened (2-5 degrees, but enough it was backwashing into overflow tank.

Killed an hour (with a good burger and beer).

Topped off coolant, and limped home (well, where I'm staying here).

I'll fill again on a truly cold engine tomorrow and test it, but I'm obviously not going home tomorrow . . .

I'm suspecting heat damage (heads warped?).

Any advice, thoughts, or speculation would be useful.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

TJ Hopland

Where or how are you reading the 210?

That era Chev truck engine isn't that fragile.  Its not as overbuilt and tolerant of abuse like a 472/500 was but still a fairly durable engine.  If you were reading 210 somewhere its not a stretch to assume its 212 somewhere and you only gain a few degrees boiling point not being pure water so I think you may be having a pressure issue.

If it was me I think I may go buy a new radiator cap and install it.   Start er up and keep squeezing the upper hose as it warms up.  You should not feel any real pressure till its gets some real heat into it, usually takes some driving.  If it builds pressure before it builds heat that is a sign of a head gasket issue.  If it doesn't build pressure after a test drive you got a leak somewhere. 

Its the pressure that gets the boil temp up to like 250. No pressure you are boiling around 212 which is only a few degrees over optimal operating temp.  The reason pressure from a bad head gasket doesn't help is its blowing bubbles into the coolant which can do things like stall the flow when it gets to the water pump which then causes pockets to boil causing more bubbles and its a cascade effect.         
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

dochawk

while it had slipped my mind, a couple of months ago someone had noted that my coolant level was low, and I bought a new cap and coolant before leaving the parking lot.

I usually measure by the F in "Firing order", just to have a consistent spot:

IMG_0843.jpg

That's at the end of the red arrow and the spot.

That seems generally consistent with measuring on the sides at pink and yellow arrows.

Up higher, by light blue, tends to be significantly higher.

I poured more in this morning, and am waiting for it to settle.

I'll then top off again, run for 15-20 seconds, and come back inside to wait again.

1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

My shop manual arrives in vegas today.  Hopefully, one of my kids can email the pdf from the CD.


I'm starting to take readings, gradually increasing run time.

First reading:

9/26
11:27, 93.9, 91 ambient.  Ran 1 minute w. Fan & AC. 94.6 a couple of minutes later.  Quiet when lifting valve.

11:42  103.8.  102.3 after 1 min.9. About 1 inch an overflow tank after two minute run. Block temperature to 102 a couple of minutes after. About an inch of coolant flushed to overflow.  Tube soft.

11:57 117. Tank same. Ran for 3 min. 17 after 1 min. 115/2.  115/3.  Bubbling into overflow after about a minute. 115/1. 119/2.   127/3, still lightly bubbling gas, not liquid, into overflow, still at an inch. 127/4, still bubbling

I'm doing it about every 15 minutes, running engine one minute longer each time.

1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

[note:  the movie IMG_0849.mpg and the audio IMG_0852.audio.mpg don't display correctly, but seem to download fine on the end. as attachment]

OK, two more entries and I've stopped, as I have thumping fluid and possibly a loose belt.

  • 12:12 138f.  4 min run. 137/1. 136/2. 135/3.  131/4, stop. No bubbling. 151/1.  154/2, and a few gurgles to the tank. 158/3. Still occasional tiny162,  gurgles. 159/4. Still tiny gurgles.
  • 12:27.  175f. 5 min run . 159, 161, 170, 176. Thunking sound, like fluid.  Overflow tank to full hot within a minute or so. Block to 189 at 12:34.

It was about time to end the five minutes when it started "thumping".  I grabbed a video to get the sound, but saw something I *very* much didn't expect:


 
(you may have to download the attachment at the end of this post)

(I normally wouldn't send this in full resolution, but it's not apparent in my reduced versions)

Is it me, or is the upper left fully slipping erratically?

That was with the engine running.  Here is audio only with the fan off, as well:

(you may have to download the attachment at the end of this post)




So what *is* that sound? water pump? thermostat?

speaking of the thermostat, should I pull it just to toss in a pot of water on the stove and see if it works?


So a belt & pulleys before anything else?  Amazon delivers most here in 1 day (but I may have missed today's deadline out here).  [if it comes to it, there's an oreilley's two miles away, but I'd have to pedal uphill!]


Which pulleys?

the idler was making a snickering sound that has since stopped, and this one (what is it?) should go too, but what else?

IMG_0632.jpg

And I guess I need the idle pulley too, too. Gosh, it galls me to buy another one, when I have a perfectly good one (well, harbor freight, but still) in my garage.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

The Tassie Devil(le)

Is that a crack I can see in the pulley?

If it is, then it definitely needs replacing before it destroys itself, creating more damage.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

dochawk

that's a crack, all right.

But what pulley *is* it? [it's lower right facing the car]

It needs to replace, as do the belt and the idle.  What else *should* be replaced while at that?

I think that if I can order by mid-morning, amazon can have most things here Wednesday.

and we'll see if I can talk my kids through pulling the pdf from the FSM cd in the morning and mailing it to me.

1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

and now the FSM has arrived.

it took some doing (I guess one old drive died), but my daughter managed to pull the pdf and email it to me.  So I'll read the cooling system this morning, and leave the rest of the 2,245 pages for another day.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

well, *that* wasn't how I wanted it to go!
:(

it took about the half gallon to get just under the neck of the radiator (with empty surge tank) before starting, and then the level dropped after roughly a minute, and it took some more.

about 2 minutes in, I turned on the primary fan (the ac fan was already running).

Several minutes in, I switched it from AC to max heat.  About that time, I put the cap on the radiator.

I think it was about 12 minutes in that it hit 170, and then went up about 10 degrees/minute.

It seemed to stabilized, fluctuating at around 212, about 15 minutes in,  but then started creeping up.

and at 18.5 minutes, it started flooding into the overflow tank, quickly filling it and flowing out the top.

At that point I killed it, even though it was still blowing cold, and the AC was still blowing cold.

early on, I looked around for white smoke from the exhaust, and didn't even see any visible exhaust.

The block was just under 130F, measured next to the "F" in "Firing Order" at the end.

oh, and that was the compressor, not the alternator, that looked like it was slipping.  It turned on and off a lot for the first couple of minutes.

I went out about 15 minutes later to turn the fan off.  The block was at about 170.  the overflow tank was about an inch above "full cold".  I turned it on, and my exhaust was nice and clear (I had to crawl down close to even see the distortion in the air!)
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

OK, now *this* is interesting.

It's been running about 5 minutes without a fan at this point, heater full on:



(video primarily shows IR temp readings at various spots).
[if it won't play, try getting it from http://www.dochawk.org/caddie/IMG_0864.mpg]


The front of the radiator on the driver's side is hotter than anything else.

It's close to 200F, while the block is at about 140F (see at 30S in), and the back side of the radiator is under 100F.

You can generally see exactly where I'm aiming by the red dot.

I didn't notice any water motion (other than the jiggle), but I need to get a few ounces back out, I think.

I'll pump a few ounces out in the morning (too dark now), so that it barely covers the coil, and try to video that.

but if the water is in this range of temperature, the thermostat should definitely have opened, shouldn't it? 
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

V63

With mention of a cat and overheating (green antifreeze) it's important to realize pets (dogs and cats) will drink it and it almost always fatal with amounts of a few laps.

With these computer controlled vehicles... powering up circuits can damage electronics, contol Modules ect.

In FWD cars in that era they had a fan control module that was a frequent fail. It was mounted under the core support and about the size of a Sara Lee pound cake🤭

dochawk

no outdoor pets around here--too many coyote, javelina, bobcats, rattlers, and even the occasional mountain lion.

But when I say "remove", I mean with a pump back into my jug of 50/50.

And the climate is such (tucson) that even antifreeze doesn't last long on the pavement, and would get washed away a couple of times a day even if it did (monsoon season). . .

As this is a '93, there aren't a lot of computers (but some).  This circuit, however, is just an old-style relay, with the switch replacing the contacts, with a load of a classic DC fan.

1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

TMoore - NTCLC

I know you have spent a lot of time and effort on this, and maybe I missed it, but I always like to keep things simple.  I had a similar situation on my 1994 Fleetwood (yes, I know, completely different animal), but after switching relays etc., I finally discovered that I had a bad engine thermostat.  A 5.00 replacement and a couple of bolts later, all the fans were cycling at the correct time and everything was back to normal.  Your diagnosis does not seem to indicate that this is your problem, but I thought I would throw it out there.

dochawk

To clarify, I've actually been juggling multiple, apparently unrelated but oddly coincidental, problems.

Initially, the primary fan wasn't running--the cause of the boiling I heard. The secondary fan was running.

Once I started testing things, the secondary fan was just plain dead; it's been replaced.

The bad socket to the relay was identified (the ground pin for the relay coil had only a tenuous relation with ground).   This was temporarily patched with an alligator cable, and heat stayed where it should for a couple of 15 mile test trips, and then for 300 miles with checks of block temp every hundred miles or so.

Then, at least in the outskirts of a large metropolis (Phoenix), one of the clips worked its way off, and I overheated.  I made the switch assembly at this point, topped off coolant . . .

. . . and forgot to put the cap on *(stupid!)*. So another side trip for yet more coolant and distilled water, and I was able to drive without event to Tucson, another 100 miles.

A couple of 2 mile trips without incident.

And then about 30 miles across town, and on the return trip from that, I heard boiling from the passenger compartment after a couple of miles.  Refilled and limped home, but the lights came on again near the end.

And now I'm in head scratching mode. 

Monsoons permitting, I'll jack it up this morning.  I ordered a jack stand and chocks from Walmart.  One day shipping (for some random time today) turned into an unexpected six hour delivery from the store last night.

Once I find something to catch all the fluid, I'll put in the thermostat that also arrive yesterday from amazon, and test the one that's in there.  And inspect the water pump.

Was your thermostat actually down low at the water pump (what my FSM seems to say), or up top like a normal engine?

thanks
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

Daryl Chesterman

Your thermostat is where the pink arrow is pointing in this image, taken from post #23—the top front of the intake manifold.

    https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=194151

I have not seen anything said about pulling the radiator and having the flow through it checked at a radiator shop.  The temperature of the radiator at the top (by the inlet hose) should be hotter than at the bottom of the radiator (by the outlet hose going to the water pump).  If you have a bad head gasket or a cracked head you should be able to see bubbles in the filler neck once the engine is warmed up and the thermostat is open.  Another check of the coolant system is to have a pressure test done to see if the system will hold pressure.

Daryl Chesterman

fishnjim

50/50 glycol antifreeze should boil around 226 with the cap off, so something doesn't make sense here.  So unless you're at a very high elevation...
You can't measure the static block temperature on the outside and have any meaningful data. 
If you don't get the block completely full of coolant, then you're subject to boil out.   Without the cap, it'll just keep coming out.  Cap should hold some pressure, keeping the BP above 226 and shouldn't flash.  I'm not familiar with this year and how difficult it is to fill coolant.  It's very my models and arrangement of the hose, tanks, etc.
Cars are air side controlled in heat transfer, so if there's no/insufficient air moving across the radiator, it can not cool the engine.  The heat has to transfer to air and heat the air to cool the engine...

dochawk

Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on September 29, 2022, 03:20:59 PMYour thermostat is where the pink arrow is pointing in this image, taken from post #23—the top front of the intake manifold.

indeed, it was there, contrary to my reading of the service manual.  I've attached pp661-2; it starts at the bottom right of 661, with the diagram at the bottom of 662.  And *somewhere* in this extended section I think it referred to it being in the bottom of the engine.

After removal, I put the thermostat in a glass glass and poured boiling water over it.  It didn't do anything, so I presume it to be bad.

And the gasket came off in pieces.

Getting the passenger side bolt out was an adventure.  I have the tray of tools I'd been using the few days before the trip, which got put in the car, and a couple of miscellaneous things in her garage.  The ground wire stopped me from getting a grip on the stud so that I could get the nut off from on top of it.   Eventually I managed to bend the wire loop back close enough to get a crescent wrench on the stud well enough to loosen the nut with a socket. (at which point, naturally, the loop I was trying to save jumped off anyway . . .)

The MotoRad 2000-195 replacement has a slightly smaller outer disk than what came out of this (which was a 180F!), should this be a problem?

I put it in, retightened, and it's leaking a drizzle.  Swell.

Back to my limited tools . . . I *do* have a torque wrench with me, but it's a 3/8.  My tray is of 1/4 drive, with a few loose 3/8 that I'm using.

I'm not comfortable torquing harder than I already have without measuring.  So a cheap socket set to live in the trunk arrives tomorrow, with box wrenches on Saturday.  (but, maybe I'll luck out and get delivery tonight again!)
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

Daryl Chesterman

On what you are referring to as page 662 (shows 6B-9 in the upper right corner), in the lower corner above Figure 3, it says:

Install or Connect
NOTICE: The wrong type of thermostat assembly
installed in the thermostat housing assembly will
cause some engine coolant to only flow through the
bypass into the left end tank of the radiator assembly
causing insufficient cooling or possible engine overheating.
NOTICE: Make sure the thermostat assembly is
installed in the correct location. Installing the thermostat assembly in the intake manifold located on
top of the engine will cause excessive coolant pressure and possible overheating.
NOTICE: See "Notice" on page 6B-1 of this section.


I don't know what the "Notice" is on page 6B-1, but the above section does refer to the thermostat on the intake manifold on the top of the engine, and it possibly causing overheating.  I have worked on Chevrolet 350 engines and there was no thermostat on the lower-right front of the engine.  Could this engine have two thermostats?  According to NAPA's cataloging, the thermostat is supposed to be a 180°, and is supposed to have a rubber seal with a slot on the inside circumference of the seal that the rim of the thermostat should fit in, as well as a paper gasket.  Generally speaking, the spring side of the thermostat goes down into the intake manifold with the rim (with seal) sitting in a shallow recess, then the paper gasket goes next, then the thermostat housing.

According to Rock Auto, your thermostat should be a Motorad 7307180, which is a 180° thermostat.  So, I would not use the 195° thermostat.  Rock Auto's thermostat also shows the rubber seal around the circumference of the thermostat rim.  The diameter of the replacement thermostat should fit inside the recess in the intake manifold.  Does the section 6B-1 show the thermostat in the water outlet at the top of the intake manifold?  It sounds like you are going to have to sort out if there is also a thermostat on the front-right side of the engine, also!  I would also be very careful where there is a rubber seal around the thermostat, as well as a paper gasket, as it might cause too much thickness leaving a gap between the ears of the water outlet and the surface of the manifold and when tightened, bending the ears of the water outlet.  It is possible that you only need one or the other and not both.

Good luck!
Daryl Chesterman

dochawk

The pdf OCR is, uhh, interesting at times. The page names in the thumbnails (such as 161) don't always match the page names (1B1) . . .

The parts companies are all over the board as to whether the OEM is 180 or 195.  On the same page that RockAuto has "MOTORAD 307180 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} 180 Degree; Includes Seal
OE Temperature", just three lines up it has "GATES 33009 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} 195 Degree; OE Type Info
OE Temperature", and another line up it has the gates 180 as an alternative temperature!

(and I'm still a bit peeved with rockoauto over the two cases of "Dextron VI" that I have from them, as it was listed, that on the bottles warns *not* to use it in place of Dextron VI . . .)

For the economy thermostats, it calls 195 OE and 180 alternate.

Napa & O'Reily call 180 the OE temp--but Napa lists the wrong transmission (4L60e, which wasn't used until the following year), and O'Reilly and AutoZone had the wrong brake rotors listed (apparently confusing it with an FWD Fleetwood from a different years; they had the right ones under Fleetwood Brougham!).

The FSM doesn't list a part number for the thermostat (or, for that matter, show it!).

It shoes that whole assembly down low as "thermostat assembly housing" and similar, but doesn't show a thermostat as part of it!  In fact, I can't find *any* references to just thermostat, rather than housing!

For that matter, the only time in the entire manual that either 180 or 195 appears as a temperature is on page 1C-28, under insufficient  heating, with


I find nothing in the FSM to suggest that I should have a thermostat in the normal place (where I indeed found a thermostat).

QuotePreliminary Inspection:
1. Check for proper engine coolant level.
2. Check engine for proper operating temperature (approximately 91 °C (195°F)). If engine does not
reach 91 °C (195°F), replace thermostat assembly. Refer to SECTION 6B.


I think I'm going to put it in *without* a thermostat for the moment, and test it.  It's not like it should shutoff on a drive through the mohave desert this time of year, which would get me home at least . . .

So off to the FSM to see if I can find appropriate torque settings for the bolts that hold down the upper hose . . .
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)