Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: J on October 16, 2011, 06:09:17 PM

Title: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: J on October 16, 2011, 06:09:17 PM
I was going to suggest a modified section in the self-starter but i guess that might be out of the question   thought it would be good, i know a lot more magizines have a separate section for modified/ trucks etc... seems the more they want modifieds  to be a part of them the more seperate we are.  I think alot more members will join if modifieds are not shunned on.
Jessie
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: TJ Hopland on October 16, 2011, 09:54:01 PM
This board does not like change.   Luckily there is Stampie's board.    www.modifiedcadillac.org 
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: C.R. Patton II on October 17, 2011, 10:56:10 AM
Hello

The modified Cadillacs are a fantastic group of machines that are created by very innovative individuals. I appreciate all of them. I find the Cadillac LaSalle Club Board of Directors to be receptive to all members. Evolution only occurs by driving dialogue. Contact your region director and our President Lars Kneller.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 19, 2011, 09:10:00 PM
i too agree, there are a lot of modified cars out there
and a lot of them are very nicely done
there werea couple nice ones at this years nats in ohio, a sweet 49 and a 52 i believe,they were absolutely beautifully done cars and i loved seeing them there, original cars can be nice to look at ,but ,when i go to a big show, i prefer not to see the same thing over and over again in a different colour
i like the personalization of cars ,make it so it works for you
my 1962 caddy ragtop is not 100% stock and i dont care if it ever will be, it is used hard and quite often pulls a trailer to the dump,my boat ,another car or whatever else i need to tow with it
it is a great tow vehicle
i would rather it be not stock and used then not used because it is stock and has too many shortcomings to be used reliably or safely
i think everyone needs to remember,there needs to be someone out there to buy their car someday,and if we turn people away with modified cars ,the interest for our cars will get smaller and smaller,therefore making our cars less desireable
due to decreased interest
i think people who think outside of the box are some of the most creative people out there
i think the younger generation is much more accepting to this  modified way of thinking
just my thoughts
w lee

Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Glen on October 20, 2011, 01:11:53 AM
While I do agree there is a lot to be said for modifieds; the artistic talent to conceive them; skill to actually put them together and all, but the question I have is why do they have to invade everything?  I sometimes go to a forum on S10 pickups where they have things like a how-to to make your bed tilt, not as a dump bed but sideways, hydraulics to make them jump etc.  So I am not totally against modifieds. 

There is a modified chapter and a modified forum.  Do they really need to be here too?  Can those of us that like the old cars and enjoy the ancient technology that makes them work have a place of our own to discuss the cars and help each other keep them on the road looking like they did when they came out of the factory door without the constant din of the modifieds telling us to put a small block chevy in; convert to disc brakes etc? 

Driving the older cars takes a slightly different skill set then driving a modern car.  If you understand that keep your car properly maintained it will be as safe as a modern car with the exception of major crashes.   But properly maintained and used brakes will stop an old car very well.  The big problem is the loss of knowledge on how to maintain them.  And that is what this forum is for, to spread that knowledge. 

If we can have this forum to ourselves I promise I won’t invade the modified forum and pressure people to keep their cars original. 

Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: EAM 17806 on October 20, 2011, 08:03:26 AM
GLEN!  I'm in complete agreement with your thoughts.  EAM
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Barry Norman on October 20, 2011, 08:19:51 AM
Ditto to Glen's comments !
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 20, 2011, 08:22:40 AM
That is why a number of us created the Modified Chapter, and the Modified Forum.

But, we still gain information from this "Mother Board".

And one doesn't have to own a Modified Cadillac to be a member of the Modified Chapter, just appreciate them.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 20, 2011, 04:48:13 PM
Glen ,i understand what you are saying,i also see the other side of the coin
old cars do drive completely different,but you dont have to accept all the traits most old cars exibit
not wanting to start any great argument or panties in a knot debate here either


i prefer not to have to treat my car different just because it is old, i do not want to have to live with the shortcomings compared to a modern car, and i dont mean cup holders and climate control ,power heated mirrors  and butt warmers in the seats
i like the fact that  i can go out to my  50 yr old 1962 car ,check all the fluids ,fill up the gas tank and head out on the highway for a 3000 mile trip and not have to worry about its deficiencies,or know i can drive it in the local parade because it will  not overheat because i modified the cooling system and added an electric fan etc.
it sounds like there are many of you here that have devieted from original and modified your cars  to improve the reliability/drivability
when my car  still had  its drum brake, they were in excellent working order, everything properly adjusted etc
they did  work well, until you were travelling down the highway at 75mph and there was a sudden gridlock, you can say what you want,but a nearly 5000lb car with 4 drum brakes just is not going to stop as well as the little econobox in front of you that is just about to be shortened a couple of feet!
i drive my car ,a lot, and it is nice to know i can stop at least as well as the worst stopping newer car out there, i think you can never have enough brakes and that is the first thing i address when i get an old car

a modified section here would allow others who would also like to do similiar upgrades a chance to learn from other peoples experience

if you want to chop the roof 6 inches, install it on a 4x4 chevy pic up frame , stick a blower through the hood ,then i agree,this is not the place for it

perhaps it could be more of an upgraded section, not a full out chop,cut section 

i would rather have a car that has been modified to improve its usefullness than have a car that is not so usefull because it has so many limitations

i just dont understand all the resistance to a little change
after all they are all cadillacs, and this is a cadillac club right??

i also believe you are turning away a fair number of grand national participants with the modified cars are not welcome here attitude
there are many people im sure who would pay their money to come to the show and be part of the event with their improved,personalized and modified cars
i believe there should be a peoples choice for that class

lets catch up with the times and welcome all to these great events

i help run a large british car show locally ,and there is a modified class there also and it gets larger every year when people find out they are welcomed,not frowned upon
 
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Dan LeBlanc on October 20, 2011, 07:12:52 PM
Well said, Mr. Lee.  I'm of the same school - changing a generator for an alternator, or chroming my valve covers because it looks cool and its my little personal touch on the car.  It's a shame that while the car would look original on the outside, because it may be somewhat "customized" under the hood, it would be frowned upon.

Where else will you see a factory ordered Nautilus Blue and Olympic White Fleetwood Sixty Special with special order interior?  It's likely the only one produced in that colour combination.  Frowning upon the car because under the hood would have some modern upgrades (maybe even EFI if the budget permits) would deny people the chance to see a car that wouldn't be seen elsewhere.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Glen on October 21, 2011, 02:36:12 AM
Your example of the brakes not being up to par is one of my pet peeves.  My first car was a 61 Coupe DeVille.  I drove it hard and fast, traffic permitting. 

More than once I locked up all four wheels in a hard braking situation.  ABS aside how much more braking do you need?  Can you lock all four wheels and slide to a straight stop?  If not something is wrong.  Unless you install ABS with the disc brakes you will not get better braking than that. 

The problem lies in the knowledge base among those that repair the cars.  In this forum we pass that information along.   Elsewhere you are told those drum brakes never worked well.  That comes from the really old car like my friend’s 1914 Model T with rear brakes only.  He usually puts it in reverse to get extra braking. 

Yes we do discuss minor mods to help keep these cars on the road.  I do recognize that is sometimes a necessity.  But I still think we need a place to discuss keeping them as original as is possible in these days of dwindling parts and loss of people with the knowledge. 

Those who like the modifies can easily hop over to the modified forums, nothing says they can’t be members of both forums. 
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 21, 2011, 06:06:04 AM
Quote from: Glen on October 21, 2011, 02:36:12 AM
Your example of the brakes not being up to par is one of my pet peeves.  My first car was a 61 Coupe DeVille.  I drove it hard and fast, traffic permitting. 

More than once I locked up all four wheels in a hard braking situation.  ABS aside how much more braking do you need?  Can you lock all four wheels and slide to a straight stop?  If not something is wrong.  Unless you install ABS with the disc brakes you will not get better braking than that. 

There is nothing wrong with Drum Brakes, and in the first application of Drum Brakes, they perform better than Discs.

But, after a lot of quick applications, Drums are virtually useless.   But, it is up to the driver to know, and realise the deficiencies of Drum Brakes, and drive accordingly.

Nothing worse than fanging it down a mountain and getting Brake Fade.   Especially when the car in front of you is running Discs, or is a Manual Transmission, or a hairpin turn is ahead.......   

Plus, no need for ABS unless you don't know how to drive, but this option is very good when it comes in, whilst you are over-driving the handling of the vehicle ........

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Dan LeBlanc on October 21, 2011, 07:32:14 AM
Quote from: StevenTuck on October 21, 2011, 04:58:36 AM
Glen,

But ultimately the modifieds are created as a result of influence from the media and peers. Plus it is much easier and cheaper to modify a car than restore it to factory specs.


I wholeheartedly must disagree on both counts here.  Although I prefer to keep my car as close to factory as possible with some minor upgrades for technology, here's why I disagree.

Media and peers usually are the last influences to modify a car.  Most people want to have something that nobody else can have - anybody can go buy a car, make it roadworthy, pretty it up a bit and drive it.  The people who go through the trouble to modify them see the completed result as a work of art and what they started with as an expression of their art form.  It is because of taste and a desire to express themselves that they do it, not because some ad for House of Kolor paint told them it will make their car look cool.

On the second point, it is not much easier and not always cheaper to modify something.  To drop a 500 cu.in. Caddy motor into a 1962 Cadillac requires much more work than to remove, rebuild, and replace the stock 390.  Much pain and fabrication labour goes into executing such an undertaking and, if you cannot do the work yourself, custom fabrication work doesn't come cheap.  Modifying crossmembers to accommodate the larger power plant and preserving structural integrity while making sure components can handle the extra stresses and additional power takes engineering, patience, and time.  Anybody can rebuild and replace a stock carburetor, but not everyone can add EFI and make it work better than the original system it replaces.  That's what sets the modifieds apart from the rebuilt. Yes, I said rebuilt, not restored as there are very few actually RESTORED cars out there.  A restored car means that each bit of overspray is researched and recreated, each paint dot on a coil spring is placed in exactly the right spot and basically, the car has to look exactly like it did as it left the assembly line.  There is one company I know of that specializes in such restorations.  That is Legendary Motorcar in Ontario, Canada.  They had a weekly series here on Canadian television.  They could do a "rebuilt" car that was better than new for approximately $150,000 or a "restoration" that was 100% factory accurate right down to overspray in the right places where it would've had it from the factory for $250,000-300,000.  That was because of the extra research and work to make a RESTORATION.

Even the purists do things to modify their cars and still try and pass it as original - such as stainless exhaust and brake lines.  I find it somewhat hypocritical for someone to say, "yes, I restored my car," but find these items in it.

Whether you like it or not, at 33, guys like me are the future of this hobby whether this club likes it or not.  For not wanting to welcome folks like us because we do things that are not authentically correct is to the detriment of this club.  As members leave, or worse yet, die off, if the club does not change to meet the times, so too the club will die with it.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 21, 2011, 08:39:10 AM
speaking on brakes, i do agree at low speed the drums are much more responsive
but when mingling at 80 mph in Detroit on crowded 4 ,5,and 6  lane freeways where the speed can repeatedly go from 80mph to 20 back to 80 in the matter of a few seconds,drum brakes just dont cut it
if you drive the car within the limits of its drum brakes you will be fine
there is no ones influence on what i do to my car,media or peers
it is a result of the real world situations i use my car in
i do not treat it like a 50 yr old car,nor do i want to
i really enjoy driving the car,and the brake upgrade,which by the way unless you crawl under the car or remove a wheel goes un detected!

on the modified cars, i also think that welcoming the modified cars opens up another source of hard to find parts, as people modify their car ,thay will have no use for the original parts they remove and the parts can go on to help others keep their cars going also, i think it is a win- win situation

a lot of people have a great sence of nostalgia and want a car from their youth, until they drive them and then they change their mind.
people have been spoiled by cars that practically drives itself and are less tollerant to cars that do anything less
if someone can resurrect a old car and make it useable for them i say go for it, at least there is another oldie on the road

i agree with Dan, the furture of the hobby and cthis club belongs to the younger generation, lets welcome them in to keep this club alive

unless you get people interested in the old cars ,specially the pre war ones ,who is going to want to buy a beautiful ,rare car that you can only trailer to a show and look at
the younger generation is a generation that actually wants to use the car for what it was made for,to drive

i also love the term restored for a car, most people think a repaint and new brakes make the car restored.
there are not many "restored" cars out ther,most are way over restored
if you want to keep your car orignal, that is great,if you want to modify it that is great too
i see a lot more people turning up their nose at modified cars that people do at original ones.
if the fuel situation gets worse and the carb cars will barely run, my car will be one of the first to be set up with what ever it needs to be a ble to be used,injection or fuel cell,what ever technology is required at the time
i plan on being able to drive my car forever . when original parts wear out and are no longer available, something will be substituted to keep it rolling, even if it means a new chassis
Cuba is a good example of that, you seea nice 56 caddy or something and say wow look at that, upon closer inspection it is on a nissan diesel pick up frame or something
that guy kep her rolling anyway he could

i am all about keping it on the road and USEFULL . not just something i can drive to the local show or cruise night. i do not want a old car just to be able to say i have one in the garage
my tires will definately  wear out before that rot,specially the right rear one , my car gets bugs splattered on it and the ocassional stone chip(they hurt but i'm over it)
my white /red interior is not quite as white as it used to be with two kids climbing in and out of it but thats ok too, i am using my car and enjoying the hell out of it as are my kids .



the attitude needs to stop  for the future of the club and everyone has to learn to appreciate the car underneath it all


Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Jay Friedman on October 21, 2011, 06:03:51 PM
My '49 is totally stock.  (Well...., almost, since it has a modern AM/FM radio because I don't like the AM programming in my area and not because the original radio was faulty.)  It is still 6 volts and starts even in the hottest weather after a high speed run, since I pay regular attention to the electrics.  As such, it doesn't need an electric fuel pump.  It still has drum brakes which stop it fine and which I keep in tune with occasional major adjustments and overhauls.  I drive it regularly, including 15 long distance trips to 12 CLC Grand Nationals and 3 National Driving Tours up to 1,100 miles away, though, yes, I sometimes suffer without air conditioning.  I'm proud of my car's accomplishments, which are primarily due to it being a high quality Cadillac and, secondarily, due to my mechanical skills and knowledge.  If it were modified substantially, in my opinion it would no longer be a '49 Cadillac but something else.             

Having said the above, it is also my opinion that there is a place in the CLC and on this forum for car's which can be characterized as "upgraded" or modified, though, personally, I don't particularly like the concept.  To me, it's kind of like throwing in the towel.  On the other hand, I believe everyone is free to make his own personal statement with his or her old car and all such statements are equally valid.  The term "old car nut" says it all, doesn't it?
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 21, 2011, 06:14:29 PM
congrats on driving the 49 Jay, love the fact that you are actually driving it ,that is awesome


i agree modifieds are not for everyone,or are beautifully done back to original cars
in some ways it takes more time to find that elusive last part needed for a resto than to modify something so you do not need that part
on the other hand i give credit to the folks who think out a modification and carry on with it knowing that they have to make up everything in order to make it work


there is room on the forum and the CLC for both of us to co exist happily
 
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Dan LeBlanc on October 21, 2011, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on October 16, 2011, 09:54:01 PM
This board does not like change.   Luckily there is Stampie's board.    www.modifiedcadillac.org

Which is why when I'm 70, I have my doubts as to whether this forum and club will still exist.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Jay Friedman on October 21, 2011, 08:34:04 PM
Dan LeBlanc may be right, but on the other hand we "restorers" are largely an aging crowd.  I forget the exact percentage of CLC members over the age of 65 that was presented in the survey results in the latest Self Starter, but it was substantial and I'm among them.  The fact remains that younger members are partial to modified cars, so it may be that the club's original purpose of promoting the preservation of Cadillac's in their original state may be modified (no pun intended) to include as full fledged members the modifiers among us and their cars in Grand National judging.  I won't like it anymore than I liked having to buy a cell phone or switch from DOS to Windows but, hey, it's their world.   
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Chris Conklin on October 21, 2011, 08:57:05 PM
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on October 21, 2011, 07:29:51 PM
Which is why when I'm 70, I have my doubts as to whether this forum and club will still exist.

As to these forums and clubs; One needs the other. If somebody did not keep these old original cars, they would not be here to restore or modify. To each his own.

As Jay stated, the entire purpose of this club is to further the preservation of original Cadillacs. If you joined this club, you need to be aware of that. Thanks to the fact that Cadillacs are extremely well built, we are able to drive a 50-60 year old car on a regular basis (my '66 is my driver on the highways and bi-ways of Southern California). Many people want to put more modern components on the car to help do that. I don't have a need to do so, but some do. Not a problem, just don't expect it to be judged or accommodated under the aegis of a group that is promoting originality. And "judged" is not a judgemental term (no pun intended) and I am not demeaning modified cars.

Dan, let's talk again when your closer to 70. You may be of a more nostalgic mind and you may feel a need to preserve a club like this. And I realize that your nostalgia will be for the old modified cars of your past. Way off in the future when you're hunting down a car, you don't want somebody else's modified basket case, do you? With any luck, you'll find a clean original example to install that flux-capacitor into.  ;D
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Bob Steur on October 21, 2011, 09:50:00 PM
As an owner of (1) a modified Cadillac - the fabulous  500 powered Chicken Coupe, (2) a totally stock "restoration" in the works - my 68 Convertible that I've been working on this summer,and posting in the Restoration Blog, and (3) last but not least - a modified car that is being un-modified and returned to stock - my 59 Coupe... I have been following this discussion with interest. FWIW I'm 50 so I'm not young anymore but not quite an old timer either.

I agree with most of what's been said. There needs to always be a place in the club for those who want to know the correct placement of the heater hose clamps and the correct whitewall size. I find this information valuable and it's one of the reasons I belong to the club. I don't want to muddy the discussion with "remove your heater so there's more room for the engine," "put dubs on it, " etc. I get a real kick out of seeing cars that are all original or returned to as original condition as possible, right down to the letters on the hoses and the chalk marks on the frame.

But there also should be a modified forum. Some cars are not rare enough, desirable enough, or in good enough condition to warrant return to their original state. I bought my diesel Fleetwood coupe off Craigslist for five hundred bucks. You get the idea, it was never going to be invited to Pebble Beach. But I had a blast figuring out how to drop a 500 with headers, Holley carb, etc. in it, and still have fun generating clouds of tire smoke for the kids. This car was where it began, for me. The Chicken Coupe fueled (no pun intended) my interest in Cadillacs and let to the purchase of the two restoration candidates.

So let's add a Modified, "Hot Rod Cadillacs", or "Cadillac Crafting" forum on this board, beside Buy/Sell, Technical/Restoration, etc. I would love to be able to post the Chicken Coupe details there - for anyone that wants to convert their diesel, have some fun with engine swapping, or wants to know what kind of headers will fit. And maybe someone can help me figure out how to have air conditioning once I've installed a hi rise intake manifold.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 21, 2011, 10:44:28 PM
i believe Bob wins the grand prize
well said
i know of a  lot of  modified cars,they were resurrected from the should have been dead and made into a car again
it would make no sense to try to restore such an example,but to modify it makes sense(and cents too)
if your modified car has rusty chrome ,heck,paint it to match the car and save yourself$10000 in chrome

i think maybe there could be a poll taken to see what everyone thinks
after all it is OUR  club ,is it not

Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Jay Friedman on October 22, 2011, 12:49:02 AM
I'm a little red-faced to admit it I don't know, but I have a question for Bob Steur.  What is a "dub"? 

(On the other hand, as the late Frank DeCou, a regular contributor to this forum, used to say, the only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask.)
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2011, 01:13:42 AM
I am not opposed to modifieds in general, and I am not opposed to modifieds in the club, they are already accepted by the club.  I am only opposed to modifieds in this forum.  If the club wants to start a new forum specifically for modifieds that would be great.  Just let us have our forum to discuss the right hose clamp and proper white wall widths. 

Yes  someday the young will inherit this club and forum, in the meantime maybe we can show them a different way.   
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Dan LeBlanc on October 22, 2011, 08:15:26 AM
Quote from: Glen on October 22, 2011, 01:13:42 AM


Yes  someday the young will inherit this club and forum, in the meantime maybe we can show them a different way.   

Perhaps we can show EACH OTHER new ways.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Greg Powers on October 22, 2011, 09:00:10 AM
I must agree with the original purpose of this club, preservation. I know that there are those who enjoy the modified vehicles, but the judging and conversation of this club is directed more to the original Cadillac and LaSalle. I am in that 50's age group and I don't even like the idea of changing orginal color or interior (even to another correct color or interior choice), but that's just my thing. I think that is why there are modified forums, rat-rod forums, and many others in the mix. I respect others for what they have chosen and hope that they will respect me for my choice.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 22, 2011, 10:47:23 AM
Quote from: Glen on October 22, 2011, 01:13:42 AM
Yes  someday the young will inherit this club and forum, in the meantime maybe we can show them a different way.   

Glen, on the other side of the coin maybe we can show the people who are opposed to any change a different way
not saying one is better than the other, they both have their place

i think both groups can learn a lot from each other, the first being respect !
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 22, 2011, 10:55:12 AM
sorry Dan for the repeat thought ,didnt see your post


Greg, i think the judging on a  cars originality is just fine, i think the modified group should be included in the judging too ,something simple like a peoples choice or something similiar as a custom can really only be judged on its quality and creativity

Like Sheryl Crow sang in a song, "a change ,will do us good "
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 25, 2011, 06:49:12 PM
Jay, a dub from what i understand is a car with huge wheels,and usually lifted to accomodate it, and generally looks pretty silly
i think the wheels themself are the "dub" part

Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: EAM 17806 on October 25, 2011, 07:25:37 PM
62droptop!  Like Sheryl Crow sang, "A change to the GOOD will do us good" that was her intent. Think about it!  EAM
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 25, 2011, 09:05:03 PM
my thoughts exactly, change a great car to make it better!

definately  not like the purple monster in my last post

couldnt enjoy my car the way i do without some upgrades i did, brakes being the biggest and most important



Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: pauldridge on October 25, 2011, 10:25:05 PM
I agree with you on the brakes issue, Glen,

When I first bought my '40 60 Special, but prior to delivery, a principal at one of the larger vintage Cadillac parts suppliers told me I'd never get the car to stop without installing his $1,200 disk brake system.  So I was expecting the worst when the car arrived.  Was I surprised to find that the brakes were firm, well balanced, and quite capable of locking up all four wheels if need be.  The same is true of my '59 MGA roadster with drums all around.  I'd pit the braking of that little car to just about anything on the road without ABS.

Sure, if you're taking a car to the race track, and need capability for continuous braking without fading, by all means, slap some discs on the car.  But otherwise, in my opinion, all this hype about converting to disc brakes falls in the same category of adding a "cold air" intake filter to increase horsepower.... pure snake oil!

Quote from: Glen on October 21, 2011, 02:36:12 AM
Your example of the brakes not being up to par is one of my pet peeves.  My first car was a 61 Coupe DeVille.  I drove it hard and fast, traffic permitting. 

More than once I locked up all four wheels in a hard braking situation.  ABS aside how much more braking do you need?  Can you lock all four wheels and slide to a straight stop?  If not something is wrong.  Unless you install ABS with the disc brakes you will not get better braking than that. 

The problem lies in the knowledge base among those that repair the cars.  In this forum we pass that information along.   Elsewhere you are told those drum brakes never worked well.  That comes from the really old car like my friend’s 1914 Model T with rear brakes only.  He usually puts it in reverse to get extra braking. 

Yes we do discuss minor mods to help keep these cars on the road.  I do recognize that is sometimes a necessity.  But I still think we need a place to discuss keeping them as original as is possible in these days of dwindling parts and loss of people with the knowledge. 

Those who like the modifies can easily hop over to the modified forums, nothing says they can’t be members of both forums.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: speach on October 25, 2011, 10:38:14 PM
I love these cars. They were classy cars from the drawing board to the show room, and they should stay that way. Stock or modified. I would love to ask the the original developers what they dreamed the production cars could be, not had to be. I appreciate preservation, and personal taste but is a Cadillac no longer a Cadillac after it has a personal touch from the owner? It is still a Cadillac. Would an original Autorama prototype show car be considered modified because it is not a production model. No. 
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Glen on October 26, 2011, 01:00:38 AM
Thanks for the support Paul.  In an earlier post Bruce said that drum brakes were useless after a number of rapid applications. 

One of the things people learn while learning to drive back in the day was about brake fade how to prevent it and what to do when it happens.  But in all the years of riding in mom’s 46 Caddy, dad’s 38 Caddy and driving in my 61 I can’t say that I recall any incidents where anybody had to take drastic action because of brake fade.  Mostly it was just paying attention to how you are using the brakes and avoiding fade.     

The only time I had a loss of brakes was in the 68 ELDO with disc brakes.  The brake fluid gets much hotter in brake calipers then it ever did in wheel cylinders.  Thus you need a higher grade of fluid and you must change it occasionally. 
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 26, 2011, 01:32:16 AM
Let me clear up a bit about Brake Fade and Drum Brakes.

Under "normal" use, Drum Brakes are good, and have been good for years, and will still be good into the future.

But, try driving down a steep mountain road with lots of sharp turns and bends that necessitate slowing down to much slower speeds than on the straights, say 15 Mph, from higher speeds, and with little time for the drums to cool down between applications, then Brake Fade is waiting to happen.

And when it does happen, no amount of pedal pumping or pressure will slow the vehicle down.

Truck Drivers know that their brakes are designed to "panic" stop their fully-laden vehicle from maximum speed to a stop, only once, before they need cooling down.

Heat is the killer in Drum Brakes.

Manual Transmissions in vehicles with Drum Brakes totally assist in the less use of the brakes, but the Automatic transmission equipped vehicle is especially hard on brakes.

But, a lot of operations depend on the driver, and the way the vehicle is driven, and us "older" drivers that began with Manual Transmissions and graduated to Automatics realise that the driving is different.

The trouble these days is if you are driving an older vehicle, and you leave sufficient stopping distance, for your vehicle in the traffic, there will always be the idiot that doesn't understand why you left a gap, and will slot his vehicle into that space.   When they have to stop suddenly because of the traffic ahead, then they sometimes find out the hard way just why you left that space in the first place.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   My '60 CDV had Drums, but my Hot Rods have Disks.
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 26, 2011, 01:38:01 AM
i dont understand all the negativity regarding making ones car safer

i will gladly let any of you who want to test drive my car to test  my brakes ,then you can make an informed decision to  see what i am talking about,ignorance is bliss
my caddy stops faster and harder than my wifes newer dodge grand  caravan,and it had the biggest factory brakes.

i guess most of you are so against any modifications or deviations from original ,you are not open to the concept that something modified may actually be better.i think i mentioned before, unless you actually remove a wheel of crawl under the front and look at inner side of wheel,you cannot tell the car has been modified,very stealth upgrade
i did not say the drum brakes did not work well, in fact they work better at low speeds than the discs, a little more sensitive .
and when i am putting around the city,sometimes i wish i still had the responsiveness of the drums,buy a quick freeway trip soon changes my mind
i do not have to plan my stops ahead or leave extra distance like in the past
if you do not drive the car hard or in congested traffic freeways then by all means the stock brakes are plenty fine
i treat my car just as i would treat a brand new cadillac ,i drive it in all types of situations. i can stop from 80 mph hard  ,straight and fast, repeatedly if need be.
i am from a way of thinking that you can never have enough brakes

i run my car with the traffic at  high speeds on the highways, my drum brakes were in perfect condition,adjusted  properly etc, after a couple hard stops ,i had serious brake fade ,pretty much non existant brakes
i also occasionally pull my 22 foot boat also with my car, i need to stop!

my first car was an austin mini, 7'' drums all around.
being a kid i wanted to make it go faster,so i did ,much faster ,but then i couldnt stop the beast,7'' drums from 70 mph = good luck stopping anytime soon
solution was to fit disc brakes,problem solved
sure the drums were adequate if i drove like a little old man never over 45mph
still have a mini but it has huge disc brakes on the front now ,and i feel quite confident driving it at speed,i know it will stop


i do not drive my car easy or slow,i guess that make all the difference in the world regarding brakes.
i do not treat my car like a 50 yr old car.

driving your first car hard,when traffic permitted was a different story years ago
not as much traffic and everyones car stopped pretty much the same,perhaps the caddy stopped a little better than most because it has huge brakes
Glen are you telling me you could lock up all 4 wheels at 80mph?
i can if i want too,but that is not going to stop me any faster than drums will it ?

i realize that for  the brakes work at their maximum , the tire has to be able to grip the road,a locked up tire is no good.
i have had a few of my cars on the track for track day and realize the importance of brakes.
if any of you have ever pushed your car way beyond its limits you would completely understand what i am talking about here
speach,well said
Quote from: speach on October 25, 2011, 10:38:14 PM
Iis a Cadillac no longer a Cadillac after it has a personal touch from the owner? It is still a Cadillac. . 

i
Quote from: Glen on October 26, 2011, 01:00:38 AM
l.  In an earlier post Bruce said that drum brakes were useless after a number of rapid applications. 

One of the things people learn while learning to drive back in the day was about brake fade how to prevent it and what to do when it happens.   I can’t say that I recall any incidents where anybody had to take drastic action because of brake fade.  Mostly it was just paying attention to how you are using the brakes and avoiding fade.




Glen, this is what i have been trying to tell you, i DONT want to have to drive my car like an old car!!!!!
i do not have to worry about that any more. 

if drum brakes were the big rage,why does almost every manufacturer have most cars with 4 wheel disc brakes, it is not just hype, its a fact
the same goes with an old muscle car, are you telling me you would rather have drum brakes on your 68 hemi charger that you drive quite spiritedly blasting around the back roads?
 
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 26, 2011, 01:45:51 AM
Thank you Bruce for understanding where i am coming from

i am glad someone else understands the reasoning behind upgrading ones brakes for SAFETY

i drive a heavy vehicle daily for work, i leave lots of room for stopping but on a daily basis people take advantage of that and really remove my margin of safety more often than i like

when everyone was worried about brake fade,everyone drove the SAME way, not today though, to get a modern car to brake fade,you will have to try mighty hard
,not just making a slightly harder stop than normal a couple times in a row

others are right ,it is about education and understanding your cars limits, but try educating the knucklehead driving beside you that just removed your stopping envelope by cuting in front of you and you now run into the back of him

i do not want to be that guy running into the moron who doesnt understand old school technology
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Glen on October 26, 2011, 01:53:36 AM
Bruce, the automatic transmission has a “drive right” which provides more engine braking than drive left the normal driving range.  If you get into a situation you think might over heat the brakes you shift to drive right.  But in my experience that was a rare situation.   

Quote from: 62droptop on October 26, 2011, 01:38:01 AM
i dont understand all the negativity regarding making ones car safer

Lee, the issue is that the modifications may not be safer as advertised. 


Quote from: 62droptop on October 26, 2011, 01:38:01 AM
Glen, this is what i have been trying to tell you, i DONT want to have to drive my car like an old car!!!!!

But that is the whole purpose of driving an old car.  Why would I want to drive a car that is a Honda in disguise?   
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 26, 2011, 06:44:27 AM
G'day Glen,

When you travel around Tasmania, there are more hills and bends than a tightly wrinkled up piece of A4, so good brakes are a must, but I drive my Cadillacs accordingly.

I do know about the downshifting an Auto, and even that trying to pull up 2 1/4 Ton of iron behind a car with Disk Brakes and nowhere to overtake makes for some interesting happenings.   Thank God that these Cadillacs have good strong Bumper Bars, oh, and Seat Belts.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   BUT, I don't hold it against anyone wanting to upgrade their stopping and handling, but, the first item I recommend is a Dual Circuit Master Cylinder, with a Vacuum Power Booster.

PPS.   I have even had to use Reverse Gear and Throttle control to complete a decent whilst towing a heave trailer as there was nowhere to turn around or get off the road, but that is another story.

Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 26, 2011, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: Glen on October 26, 2011, 01:53:36 AM

But that is the whole purpose of driving an old car.  Why would I want to drive a car that is a Honda in disguise?   

Glen i love my old car because of the incredible styling and looks, not because it drives like an old car,does not seem like a good argument to buy an old car

seller"hey  mister,you want to buy  this old car" , why you ask, he replies "because it drives like an old car"

i think that is why ,in the near future ,most people will have trouble finding new owners of their bone stock oldies, because no will want a car to drive that they  have sacrifice safety, handling,braking etc to drive
they will want a classic look that is somewhat modern in the mechanics department
that is why i think resto mods are so popular right now, incredible classic looks, modern reliability and driveability= best of both worlds

my wife is thinking she would like a 66 mustang, she will probably get one in the next couple years, it will end up with a new front suspension designed to make the car handle better,big disc brakes and a fuel injected v6 or v8 engine with aftermarked a/c ,why, to make it a awesome looking daily driver that can do almost  everything as well as its modern counterpart can
it is that or drive a boring new car,and that wont happen

there is great satisfaction in talking an old machine and resurrecting it into something way better than it ever thought it could be

would you not like to be able to use your classic more because it had less limitations???
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: Glen on October 27, 2011, 03:16:14 AM
Quote from: 62droptop on October 26, 2011, 08:35:05 PM
would you not like to be able to use your classic more because it had less limitations???

So far you have not convinced me there are any limitations.     
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: signart on October 27, 2011, 08:55:00 AM
Ford already made that old Mustang into a modern car, they are much cheaper and better than you can build yourself. Art Woody.

'59 Chev. Apache tri-power 327 camaro suspension
'66 Chev c10 396 c.i front disc brakes
'53 Cadillac coupe perfect as delivered for Detroit
Title: Re: modifieds and CLC.Club
Post by: 62droptop on October 27, 2011, 07:04:34 PM
Art, i agree about the mustang, i just think it is lacking in the styling department
would nt mind seeing some pics of your old truck, the chevs are two of my faves


Glen
what i am getting at is i would not hesitate to drive my car anywhere
i would change the oil and head out on a 5000 mile trip anythime,anywhere when it is not snowing
it is really nice not to have to think,ok i better make sure i leave enough room to stop, or better take a couple rest stops down this mountain to let the brakes cool off
i just get in and go , and would not want to trade that for anything
my car will never return to drum brakes ,long as i own it