Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: TJ Hopland on February 21, 2013, 12:07:26 PM

Title: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: TJ Hopland on February 21, 2013, 12:07:26 PM
Stumbled on this a few days ago and thought I would share.   

Please don't turn this into another thread saying how terrible that engine was.  Plenty of other threads here and on the web saying that sort of thing.

http://testdrivejunkie.com/1982-cadillac-ht4100-engine-story-manufacturer-promotional-video/

If you click on promos in his top menu bar and Cadillac there are other dealer videos from the era.   Pretty fun to watch.

Anyone know what was built at that 4100 plant after that engine series finished and if they were still using much of that equipment?  I am guessing for the time that was a super high tech plant and many of the things they did there are still being used today.

I really liked the quote in there about the 8-6-4 "it was a good idea in search of an engine management system of the future".     
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 21, 2013, 12:57:33 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 21, 2013, 12:07:26 PM
I really liked the quote in there about the 8-6-4 "it was a good idea in search of an engine management system of the future".   

A fair & apt summation of the V-8-6-4, I agree.

The first time I ever heard the diesel comparing favorably with anything. Ha!

*Becoming equally tiresome is the suggestion (usually from outsiders) that when purchasing a Cadillac product, the buyer is paying for the trademark and not a superior, more refined automobile. While commonalities certainly existed between Cadillacs and their lower ranking GM siblings, (as had been the case for decades) there were substantive differences that wouldn't be apparant without firsthand experience with all varieties of a given GM platform. 

Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: R Schroeder on February 21, 2013, 03:25:20 PM
Interesting T.J.
All those control panels were built by the company I worked for. Allen Bradley , in Milwaukee, Wi.
I thought I even saw one of our electricans doing a set up at that plant.
Roy
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on February 21, 2013, 03:40:02 PM
Quote from: ericdev on February 21, 2013, 12:57:33 PM
The first time I ever heard the diesel comparing favorably with anything. Ha!

I am always amused to look back at how GM promoted the impressive resale value of their Diesel equipped cars even as late as 1982 or so.  Sadly, how incredibly wrong that turned out to be starting just a few years later.  You could eventually pick up a Diesel Cadillac, Oldsmobile, etc. for a song compared to equivalent gas engine models.

It's too bad Diesels didn't work out better for GM back then.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: TJ Hopland on February 21, 2013, 10:15:34 PM
Did you try the 81 Seville video?   Considering the standard engine was the diesel they seemed to spend half the video talking about the MPG sentinel that was only available on one of the engine options.  They were sure proud of that feature.  I guess it was kinda neat and I think it was a while (10+ years?) before others started doing that?

I also watched one that talked about the Cimmaron and they mentioned a bunch of features that were not even available on Audi or BMW.  Sometime in my free time I was going to look up the models they mention.    I think it was in the 1986 full line video.   I recently test drove a early 80's Mercedes and after that experience I think I may have chosen the Cimmaron, especially since it was likely half the price.  The one in the video looked fairly thin on options, I thought even those cars got loaded up with the genuine intimation wood and chrome.  The one in the video really did look like a Chev with a Cadillac emblem on the trunk. 
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: soonerinmo on February 22, 2013, 11:30:32 AM
Cool video; I love to see how they did things in the early days of computerization and computer aided design (CAD).
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 22, 2013, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on February 21, 2013, 03:40:02 PM
I am always amused to look back at how GM promoted the impressive resale value of their Diesel equipped cars even as late as 1982 or so.  Sadly, how incredibly wrong that turned out to be starting just a few years later.  You could eventually pick up a Diesel Cadillac, Oldsmobile, etc. for a song compared to equivalent gas engine models.

It's too bad Diesels didn't work out better for GM back then.

You've got that right. Up until '81 or '82, used car value guides claimed Add Diesel $500. A year later it became Deduct Diesel -$500. A year or so after that, Deduct 50% Trd-in Value for Diesel.

Conversely today, diesels often command more than 4100s or as least as much- from what I've observed. Extreme rarity + overseas demand (where diesel is more commonplace and taxed lower than gas) likely factor into it.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on February 22, 2013, 01:51:15 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 21, 2013, 10:15:34 PM
Did you try the 81 Seville video?   Considering the standard engine was the diesel they seemed to spend half the video talking about the MPG sentinel that was only available on one of the engine options.  They were sure proud of that feature.  I guess it was kinda neat and I think it was a while (10+ years?) before others started doing that?

It is interesting that the focus in that Seville video was much more on the V8-6-4 but it was an important engine for them too, and all-new for 1981 while the diesel had been out for a while.

The whole "standard diesel" thing was a bit of a marketing gimmick, though.   The engine pricing structure on the Seville wasn't really any different than other Cadillacs e.g. in 1981, choosing between the diesel or V8-6-4 on an Eldorado or Seville netted the same retail price whether going "down" to the V8-6-4 on the Seville and getting a $ credit or going "up" to the diesel on the Eldorado and adding the cost.  Standard, optional...it really amounted to the same thing in the end.

But, I guess they felt being able to say that the Seville was the first/only American car with "standard diesel power" was meaningful at the time.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on February 22, 2013, 01:58:45 PM
Quote from: ericdev on February 22, 2013, 11:57:58 AM
You've got that right. Up until '81 or '82, used car value guides claimed Add Diesel $500. A year later it became Deduct Diesel -$500. A year or so after that, Deduct 50% Trd-in Value for Diesel.

Conversely today, diesels often command more than 4100s or as least as much- from what I've observed. Extreme rarity + overseas demand (where diesel is more commonplace and taxed lower than gas) likely factor into it.

It was kind of surprising that GM diesel resale values remained relatively strong into 1982 as public knowledge of at least some problems associated with those engines started to become more widely known even before then.

It must have been frustrating to say the least to have bought one of those GM diesels brand new (Cadillac or other) in part because of the claimed stronger resale only to potentially have notable mechanical issues and then a few years later get absolutely clobbered in resale value at trade-in time.  Ouch!

Those GM diesels are pretty rare today but there is definitely an enthusiasts following.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 22, 2013, 02:23:04 PM
Closer to a "cult" following; definitely not mainstream though. 
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: TJ Hopland on February 22, 2013, 05:03:12 PM
I have one and I love it but they are not very common anymore.  Just in the few years that I have owned one parts have become a lot more scarce which makes it more difficult to own one.

I really dont see much difference in value in these era cars based on engine choice.  I think by this age people know its more about the overall condition. 

If you go look at the Oldsmobile promos there is one in there from 83 about the diesel engines.  It confirmed what I thought I heard that 81 was the peak year.  It said something like 500,000 passenger sales in 81 were diesel.  Over 100,000 were olds and they were the leader and it was 20% of their total sales (1 in 5).  I would guess Cadillac was not far behind.  That means that perhaps between the other GM brands including the light trucks that still had the Olds 5.7 that year you got another 100 or so thousand that still leaves another 100,000 for the VW, Volvo, and Mercedes.  I don't think Ford or Chrysler ever made much of a dent in that market.

After owning one I totally see why people gave them a shot.  Fuel ecomomy was a factor and many people did not want to give up their comfortable relatively safe land yachts.   Think back to how bad the econo cars were back then.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: waterzap on February 22, 2013, 10:08:52 PM
Want to get myself a litte Cimarron right now  :P
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 23, 2013, 08:53:52 AM
Quote from: waterzap on February 22, 2013, 10:08:52 PM
Want to get myself a litte Cimarron right now  :P

A '78 Eldo to a Cimarron. That's quite a change.  ;)
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: TJ Hopland on February 23, 2013, 11:35:22 AM
Maybe he needs a dinghy for the 'mother ship'?   Might as well go ashore in style. 
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on February 23, 2013, 01:33:20 PM
Although just barely, the 1982 Cimarron was listed with more front legroom than DeVille/Fleetwood Brougham of the time (42.2" vs. 42.0").  Also, more front headroom than DeVille/Fleetwood Brougham coupes (38.2" vs. 38.1"), Eldorado (38.2" vs. 37.9"), and Seville (38.2" vs. 38.1").
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: 76eldo on February 23, 2013, 02:10:45 PM
More than a few mechanics picked up diesel Caddys really cheap and did a weekend conversion back to gas with a 350 Olds engine. They were very plentiful in junkyards back then.

Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: waterzap on February 23, 2013, 09:49:02 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 23, 2013, 11:35:22 AM
Maybe he needs a dinghy for the 'mother ship'?   Might as well go ashore in style.

Yup. Dinghy for the ship.  Want, need, and can keep are different things. If I could, would just collect them all.

Loved the Cimarron videos. It probably wasnt all that bad. The Cavalier wasnt a bad car, just a decent small economy car. The should have just put the V6 in there from the beginning. Even better a V8. The HT4100 isnt powerful, but it moves my Coupe Deville just fine. In the Cimarron it would have been perfect. The big Caddies from the 80s were too heavy for the 4100. Not sure if it would have fitted, but an interesting thought experiment. Jay Leno, you want a weird and wonderful project ?  :) Make the Cimarron that GM should have made in 81

Acura sells the ILX, which is just a modified Civic. Lexus sells a spruced up Camry. Bit bigger, but badge engineering is alive and well everywhere,  so dont know why Cadillac gets beaten up so much for the Cimarron.

Buick took the Cruze and made the Verano. Apparently its not a bad car at all.  Of course Cadillac wont dare, but I for one would not be totally against a Cadillac from the Cruze platform. Chevy is the base model, Buick the comfy quiet one, Cadillac the comfy, sporty one. Then again, the ATS now slots into that position.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: TJ Hopland on February 23, 2013, 10:20:51 PM
After watching the videos I will have to admit I did some searching to see if there were any Cimarrons for sale.   Not many around.  The ones closest to me were really beat.  I have the same problem with want, need, and keep.  Probably a good thing that the keep part is my biggest problem.   If I still had my 4 acre place in the middle of nowhere it would likely be full of 'junk' cars.

Anyone know if Cimarrons ever show up at any of the shows?  Guessing that there are collectors out there that have them just to make complete collections even if they don't admit they have them.   
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on February 24, 2013, 10:18:11 AM
Cimarron...ah, the good old days when you could lease a new Cadillac for under $300/month.   Oh wait....     ;D


Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: TJ Hopland on February 24, 2013, 11:36:09 AM
I like the down payment number.   $28.68.   Wonder what was up with that?  Seems like a really odd number.  Why not 28.99?  Or 28.70?  Or 28.65?.    It even looks strange to see a phone number now without an area code. 

Wonder why there was not a diesel Cimarron? You would think that would have been the ultimate fuel economy option.  I suppose the J and X bodies were what the 60* V6 was designed for and the 4.3 diesel was a 90*.  You would think they could have done an Isuzu engine like the Chevette or S-10's.    Maybe it would have got the V5 diesel if it had gone into production. 
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on February 24, 2013, 12:34:20 PM
No oil-fired Cimarrons- as adreneline churning as that may have been.  ::)  However there was a V-6 diesel option in the downsized FWD Cadillacs of 1985. I saw one in my life- a 1985 Fleetwood.
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: TJ Hopland on February 24, 2013, 01:45:56 PM
I have seen a few 85 Fleetwoods with the diesel but it was for sure a lot more common in Oldsmobiles.  Also helped that the others had the option for 82-85.  I think the most I have seen were in Buick Century.  The transverse 4.3 V6 actually addressed several of the weak points of the 5.7.  One major improvement was they changed the head and head bolt design.   It would have been very interesting to see where it would have gone if the did not pull the plug on the whole program.     
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on February 24, 2013, 02:16:25 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 24, 2013, 11:36:09 AM
Wonder why there was not a diesel Cimarron? You would think that would have been the ultimate fuel economy option.  I suppose the J and X bodies were what the 60* V6 was designed for and the 4.3 diesel was a 90*.  You would think they could have done an Isuzu engine like the Chevette or S-10's.    Maybe it would have got the V5 diesel if it had gone into production.

Had the diesel market not started to decline in 1982, they probably would've eventually developed or outsourced a diesel engine for it as well as the other J-Cars.

I enjoyed watching the first 1983 Oldsmobile Diesel Promo video.  The guy came across almost genuinely angered by the unreasonable claims/concerns regarding Olds Diesels, and some salespeople's reluctance to sell them.

Now get out there and sell those diesels!!!  ;D
Title: Re: HT4100 and other promo dealer videos from the 80's.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on February 24, 2013, 02:19:59 PM
Quote from: ericdev on February 24, 2013, 12:34:20 PM
No oil-fired Cimarrons- as adreneline churning as that may have been.  ::)  However there was a V-6 diesel option in the downsized FWD Cadillacs of 1985. I saw one in my life- a 1985 Fleetwood.

By 1985 new GM diesels were pretty rare.  You'd had to have been a real diesel fan to take a chance on one by then even if only due to the almost certain significant resale value impact.