Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: speach on July 17, 2013, 07:06:03 PM

Title: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: speach on July 17, 2013, 07:06:03 PM
I was really exited to see and for the brand that they were planning on building the  rwd flagship Ciel. I was ok with it being a sedan and not conv like the prototype. I mean where was Cadillac when the Chrysler 300 came out. I heard Peter De Lerenzo  on auto line after hours talk about this, and in my opinion he is pretty right on about it all. This is a low blow for those of us that were hoping that Cadillac would be able to truly redeem its passion driven business model. Unfortunately it looks like Govt motors has been spending to much time counting beans and thinking that chasing BMW's is the way to go. Heck even BMW has a flagship well two really, even more if you think about it. Surely they need to recoup financially from all that they put into the ATS and they dont expect to sell many Ciel's. Just another step to being an average car company.

William
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: INTMD8 on July 17, 2013, 09:18:20 PM
Quote from: speach on July 17, 2013, 07:06:03 PM
Just another step to being an average car company.

I agree. They currently build nothing to compete with the top of the line cars out there.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on July 17, 2013, 09:55:46 PM
As the Ceil was displayed with no roof, or the capacity to include one, then nobody would buy it.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: speach on July 17, 2013, 10:42:33 PM
Well people bought the heck out of the top of the line 300's when they came out. Above that Bentley and others keep coming out with more models that people with money buy. It just sucks that the Cadillac name has slid so far away from what it was. "Standard of the World" At one time. I think it still could go there again if they were willing to take a few more risks and create cars that command respect and help the brand climb higher. Im just saying they got away with this stuff when having power windows was luxury. Now all that stuff is expected in every new car. If they dont invest in the brand identity they wont have a brand to invest in at all, and im not talking about advertising. Thats a whole other rant. If they treated the Cadillac racing program like a racing program and not a marketing program maybe they would have the respect Audi and BMW has. Duh. Instead of using a marketing budget that runs out, they could be using r&D money. Better respected cars could sell themselves.  But of coarse it's a whole lot easier for me to say.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Ralph Messina CLC 4937 on July 17, 2013, 11:02:26 PM
I don’t think Cadillac is chasing the BMW business model. BMW is following Alfred Sloan’s business model of a car for each price range. Owner’s make entry with a 3 Series and will progress through 5 and 7 Series as their financial circumstances permit. Cadillac is following Henry Ford’s model of mass producing the lowest common denominator to achieve the greatest volume. Keep in mind that Edsel dragged Henry kicking and screaming to buy Lincoln and Henry would only permit introduction of a mid-range car , Mercury, as a parts bin big brother to Ford.

I did not expect the Ciel, or a derivative there of, to enter production. GM’s senior market manager, Ms. Pelosi, supported by the EPA market research would never allow It. Small and green is the path of GM’s future because that’s all they want to offer. Since the Volt’s introduction, I’ve seen seven of them on the road in the greater NYC area. If public acceptance in a large metropolitan areas is poor, where will they sell? I read somewhere that government agencies are the largest purchasers. I suspect bureaucratic dictates figures heavily in that choice.....Sad.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: speach on July 18, 2013, 06:46:54 AM
Yea I hear you. Im sure they don't want to make any big mistakes. As far as chasing BMW. They surely are. With the 3 series in their scope. I would hope that they would add other larger models down the road, unfortunately they were adamant that they would be building the Cilel. I think that they were more optimistic on the sales of the other models to support the decision, and they have fallen a bit short of hopes. In my opinion these decisions they are making are not what brought GM to the top in numbers or in public opinion in the fifties through the early seventies and even earlier than that.

William
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Chris Conklin on July 18, 2013, 02:55:15 PM
I don't think any manufacturer would be planning on production of a styling exercise or concept vehicle "whole cloth". There are some styling cues from the Ciel that are showing up in 2014. Primarily the head and tail light shapes and sizes. In my mind, these are features that maintain the iconic image of Cadillac. But I would have liked to have seen a Ciel on the road! Not that I could ever afford one...

As a proud tree-hugging owner of an Escalade Hybrid, I believe the hybrid drive is a stop-gap measure (for all marques) at raising the line-up MPG to adhere to new standards. Perhaps we will see a Ciel when hydrogen fuel becomes viable?

A question: I've seen the lack of a roof mentioned in a few postings regarding the Ciel. Is a roof required? The Viper was introduced sans-roof. Well... sans a roof-top panel anyway. Just curious.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on July 18, 2013, 07:32:26 PM
Quote from: Chris Conklin on July 18, 2013, 02:55:15 PM
A question: I've seen the lack of a roof mentioned in a few postings regarding the Ciel. Is a roof required? The Viper was introduced sans-roof. Well... sans a roof-top panel anyway. Just curious.
Sports car owners are a different breed altogether. ;)

They will put up with almost anything.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: David King (kz78hy) on July 18, 2013, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: speach on July 18, 2013, 06:46:54 AM
As far as chasing BMW. They surely are. With the 3 series in their scope. I would hope that they would add other larger models down the road, unfortunately they were adamant that they would be building the Cilel.

BMW is brand among others that Cadillac is working to beat.  It takes awhile for a car to go from dream to showroom.  The Ciel was a studio styling study with no intention of production, but served it's purpose to get people talking about what they like about it and get the brand out there.

My 2 cents.

David
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: speach on July 18, 2013, 08:21:53 PM
Of coarse the dream car prototypes rarely make it to production, which is understandable. Still would be cool to have some rain sensing convertible top Cadillacs like on the prototypes of the fifties. Along with that who could ever use those tiny side mirrors they tend to always put on every modern prototype. I love the new lights and the whole art/design philosophy thats why now that the decision makers seem to be chasing numbers on a page in front of them they are going after the 3 series and such. Theres a reason why the ats is such an amazing car. It wasn't a dream it was a target. Anyways from what I heard they had every intention on putting a Ciel sedan into production and even had some built already. Im sure they just have not seen the return on investment from all they put into the ATS. Which I don't think one amazing car will save them, they need a higher level brand recognition and respect. My opinion is that they should let Buick fill whats average and make Cadillac just a bit more elite. I dont have the money for a new Cadillac but I would surely be first in line for the right model used one!
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Meltudball on July 18, 2013, 09:52:04 PM
On a recent business trip, I rented a Chrysler 300C.  Actually I was hoping for a Cadillac, and was somewhat disappointed when I was assigned a Chrysler 300C.  The disappointment was short-lived, once I drove it off the lot.  It had all the comfort and conveniences of a good old fashioned 4 door sedan of the past, plus the power of today's performance cars.  I drove it 1,000 miles in one week, and was nothing short of being perfect.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: RyanBurman on July 18, 2013, 11:03:56 PM
Cadillac is aiming for BMW because they're pretty much the ones to beat right now. If any you read car and driver at all. BMW always scores pretty high on the list if not number one. They have multiple price and performance ranges covered with little or no flaws in the whole picture. High class luxury, commuters, and brutally fast sports cars all in one company and they're not hurting any.

I think Cadillac needs to get back with the whole king of the road top dog concept they had going from the start then into the 70s. If you had a Cadillac you were someone! I think besides the Fleetwood in the 90s Cadillac failed horribly to uphold the image they once had. I don't think they ever really recovered from that.

Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Makandriaco on July 19, 2013, 11:53:01 AM
There was a rendering on Motor Trend Magazine of a Ciel with a roof. I would have loved to see it in the road.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Meltudball on July 19, 2013, 04:21:14 PM
Quote from: RyanBurman on July 18, 2013, 11:03:56 PM
I think Cadillac needs to get back with the whole king of the road top dog concept they had going from the start then into the 70s. If you had a Cadillac you were someone! I think besides the Fleetwood in the 90s Cadillac failed horribly to uphold the image they once had. I don't think they ever really recovered from that.

I think Cadillac's "Salad Days" are gone and will not return.  When Cadillac was top dog, there only 2 other dogs in the kennel, Lincoln and Chrysler.  Slowly somewhere in the 70's, imports started make their presence known, mainly as a result of the oil embargo's.  The flower children of that era, started their careers and as they gained levels of success, they wanted more luxurious cars, with brands that already liked.  The Japanese, staying ahead of the curve, started producing luxury cars to meet this demand, thus we were introduced to Lexus (Toyota). Infiniti (Nissan) etc.  Move the clock ahead, and now just about every manufacturer has their own version of a luxury/premium model, resulting in a very crowded kennel.  On the plus side, Cadillac has gotten away from the "stodgy old man's car" image.  They now once again produce head turning models.
Title: Follow up.
Post by: Meltudball on July 19, 2013, 08:51:31 PM
Found this info concerning Michael Moores film;

This documentary exposes the reality of corporate downsizing and outsourcing - General Motors opening facilities in Mexico and shuttering their facilities in Flint, Michigan has became a trend during the mid-1980s where the Rust Belt employment sector has declined - the use of automation where Detroit's Big Three implemented the use of industrial robots resulted in the decline of the blue collar factory worker. When GM initiated this, they were consolidating their vehicle lines by sharing bodyshells which became known as platform sharing in the automobile industry. The Flint, Michigan assembly plants that GM shuttered - the corporate downsizing and outsourcing trend has influenced GM's rival Ford Motor Company with The Way Forward during the mid-2000s (Ford shuttered its Wixom, Michigan assembly plant and in late 2011, its St. Thomas plant in Canada). At the same time the film was in development, consumerism towards Asian automakers e.g. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan also resulted in the decline of motor vehicles produced by union labor where only one Asian automaker (Honda) had a manufacturing facility in Marysville and East Liberty, Ohio - the other two Asian automakers Toyota and Nissan chose to build their assembly plants (known as transplants) in non-labor union states e.g. Tennessee, Texas, and California to produce mass-market vehicles as a result of the 1981 Voluntary Export Restraints imposed by the U.S. Government. The Asian (Japanese) Big Three, Nissan, Toyota, and Honda, in response to the VER, launched their respective luxury brands - Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: David King (kz78hy) on July 22, 2013, 07:00:00 PM
Quote from: David King  (kz78hy) on July 18, 2013, 07:34:55 PM
BMW is brand among others that Cadillac is working to beat.  It takes awhile for a car to go from dream to showroom.  The Ciel was a studio styling study with no intention of production, but served it's purpose to get people talking about what they like about it and get the brand out there.

My 2 cents.

David

You might want to check this little blurb.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/07/larger-cadillac-sedan-confirmed-by-general-motors-ceo.html

I can't talk about it, but Dan can...

David
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: speach on October 20, 2013, 07:45:40 PM
I recently heard some interviews with the current Cadillac designer and I could tell that they really want to come out with a full size rear wheel drive flagship car but financially it's just not time yet. Which was really cool to hear. I was under the impression that they just didn't really have the vision for one in the line up outside of a prototype. So it looks like if things continue to go well with all of the sedans, elr and the new Escalade it might be the next step in a few years.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Martin Michaels on October 22, 2013, 05:37:00 AM
When I first saw the Ciel it was like we're back,to bad it was scrapped.Until we reign in the epa and stop it from being a legislative branch we won't see anything like it again.I fear for our old oil loving cars being regulated to cold storage by the epa. Marty
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Mr cadillac on October 24, 2013, 06:17:07 PM
I wanted to take a moment to comment on this thread. I truly do not know what Cadillac is thinking. Of course I am a consumer as well as a connoisseur, not an executive answering to stockholders. I am very passionate about the Cadillac that once was. NOT the Cadillac that it has become. I fell in love with them as a little boy. I have been privileged to own 4 of them currently I have 3 that I will never part with. But sadly they are from the past. I would not own or drive anything Cadillac makes today. I have a tattoo of the emblem, and all of the clothes I wear bear the emblem as well. So I am passionate, but the stuff on the market just keeps getting worse and worse with each passing numbered moniker they unveil. I understand from a business standpoint the all mighty dollar is KING, but I really feel Cadillac should have bowed out before Oldsmobile or Pontiac. What they have done to the name, the image,  even the mutilation of the emblem is a discrace. They have sunk so low I do not think they will ever recover. I would not own or drive a new Cadillac. I may live in the past, by the way I am 47, but the exciting trips to the dealer, the anticipation of the new models. It is gone a thing of the past. When I saw the 1st Cimmaron in 1983 I never could have imagined what was to become.   
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: speach on October 24, 2013, 07:34:38 PM
I think Cadillac still has a strong brand and is getting stronger. As far as the badge, the new badge without the crest looks pretty amazing and is similar of some older lateral ones. As far as not being in the conscious of the younger generation you need to listen to a 16 year old named Lorde who has the number 1song in the world right now. She makes fun of the ultra rich and there dreams and says speaking for her generation were dreaming of Cadillac's.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Andrew Armitage on December 04, 2013, 01:34:08 AM
The Cadillac brand is probably at it's most prestigious level since the late 60s / early 70s. Cadillac is in a prime position to regain its spot at the very top of the automobile hierarchy within the next 6 years or so if it can introduce a flagship model with a starting price of $85k or more that can compete with Mercedes S Class and BMW 7 series cars.

Cadillac has a 100 plus year history to it that the other luxury brands just don't. I think it gives them an edge in recapturing the ultra-luxury market which is going to explode in the next 10 years or so.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: dirkdaddy on December 04, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
Well car companies have to toe the line between chasing what the gear heads want and making things that can be produced and sold in sufficient low enough cost and sell in enough quantities to produce a profit. VW wanted a top end car and their car was pretty amazing, but even it had to be sold at a loss due to going too crazy with content. As is the Toyota sports car, what is it the VFA? Costs over a $1 million and they lose money on each one. Obviously they are figured as "image marketing" expense or something.

Personally, the Low Points for Cadillac for me were the malaise era the Cimmeron, the V8-6-4, The diesel. The Northstar era was much better and did a lot to improve things, but as my parents have two of those 2000 era I can tell you as far as standard of the world they are not. While Toyota in the 70's would epoxy their engine block coolant passages, GM gives you a stop leak tablet to keep it from leaking. The intake rubber behind the throttle body rots out and his has required two of them now, they burn oil. Any problems needing engine work complete replacement is advised as apparently from what technical things we've seen disassembly means that all the threads come loose and each hole needs helicoil. yes, even head bolts. Other brands have trouble too, but if you tell people that 1.5 quarts every 1000 miles is "normal" oil consumption on a top-end  Caddy, well good luck with that.

I lust after the new performance cadillac cars, I think they are resurging. Lincoln for one has no real answer to many of the models. Granted there is stiff competition on the sedan end, but Escalade and CTSv, ATS, etc are great vehicles at competitive prices.

RE: Volt - before you talk bad about them, you should research them. Owners love those cars. I wish I had researched them before buying my last car, GM really ought to leverage that technology. Most of their hybrids are weak mild-hybrids. Volt owners report the car  runs the engine sometimes just so the fuel in the tank doesn't go bad - yes they are driving mostly on electric and 99mpg or better with excellent performance and quiet ride is the norm. Electric is coming. And the torque from electric motors would flatten most regular cars, see the Tesla or other cars for example. A guy has been drag racing a Mazda with electric conversion for a while videos on youtube, he blows away even heavily modded muscle cars and only loses ground at half track when the e motor is less efficient.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: soonerinmo on December 04, 2013, 12:30:50 PM
Cadillac is losing its traditional characteristics, but has to I suppose to maintain sales. I think when they axed the DTS, I had a feeling that was the last "big" Cadillac with a traditional soft ride. The rest, I'm afraid, will look like their foreign competitors...and drive like them too.

I guess that's good for GM, as younger professionals like the luxury sports sedan niche but it's still sad in a way. I think Cadillac will be around for a while, at least, while Lincoln seems to be in its twilight years unless the new MKZ turns things around.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on December 04, 2013, 02:20:10 PM
Although I wish Cadillac could sell cars today without the need for such large carrots (rebates) to lure customers, I think and hope they'll be around for a long time.  I have doubts, however, that their annual US sales will soon, if ever, again reach the 300K+ levels common in the mid to late '70s and mid '80s as there's a lot more import competition today that didn't exist back then.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, though.
Title: Re: GM decides not to build Ciel. I think I cried when I first heard this.
Post by: R Schroeder on December 05, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
Norman....reply #19.................Amen....................ditto......................and all that good stuff.
The first thing that turned me off was the name. I keep picturing Sea World for some reason.
Car looks nice, but it isn't the Caddies of the past.
I'll keep my 78 going.
Roy