In the for sale section someone referenced a 76 Eldo for sale asking $64K. That got us talking about values and someone else said that the 76 Eldo's were often selling for $25K-40K in the next couple years being the last convert and all. That got me and at least a few other members wondering....
Lets say you were an automotive enthusiast in the late 1970's with $20k-40k burning a hole in your pocket, what could you buy both new or used? Anyone have a Hemmings or similar from that era? I assume you could get a couple 59 Eldo's or a Continentals? Maybe a Duesenberg? Were there 'exotic' 'import' cars that cost that much then? At that time in general it was only the higher end American cars that had just broken the $10K mark?
Interesting question. I think the farthest back I go on "for sale" publications is mid 90's, and even that is depressing! Of course I was only 16 then so as cheap as they were.... still out of reach.
Hindsight is 20-20 but I think Duseys can be safely ruled out for $40K in 1976: A Dusenberg had been the first classic car to hit the $100K mark in 1971 or 1972.
Regarding 1976 ELCs, my understanding has always been that they briefly hit the $25K mark in the summer of '76, shortly after which began their precipitous decline when the initial hoopla had run its course.
I began following the old car hobby in the mid- late '80s - ironically enough - just before '59 values shot into the stratosphere, virtually overnight. As late as 1986, '59 'Ritzes had been regularly advertised in Hemmings for <$20K with OCPG assigning $16K for a #1 - in 1986 (IIRC). One had been sitting in a barn owned by local Cadillac dealer from 1972 (at the time it had been traded in) until 1988 at which time he sold it for $3,000 to a buyer on the west coast. (Imagine how that dealer felt a year or two later!)
I was only 12 in 1976 and hadn't developed an appreciation of vintage cars yet - so I'm afraid I cannot answer your original question of what I would have done with $25K - $40K in any meaningful way...
I work for a guy who was related to a one time owner of that first record setting Duesenberg. Was the 100K one to the founder of Dominos Pizza? Or was it a little later and it was a similar car for $1million? The Dominos guy was the one the guy I know was slightly related to. He has a photo of him in an Auburn that the relative was trying to sell his dad in the late 50's or early 60's for something like $2000. Next time I see him I can confirm, he has the news article framed in is garage, its just been a while since I have seen it.
Hopefully someone will have some ads from the 70's.
He could well have been the first $1M Dusey buyer - I cannot affirm.
I'd be less certain that he was involved in the earlier transaction.
I once saw a documentary on Tom Monaghan and found his success story very fascinating.
*A friend has Hemmings going back to the mid 1980s, possibly earlier. I'll see what I can find.
Did some searching and it was the $1M and it was in 85.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/tag/tom-monaghan/
$100K, 1M what ever, who can keep track?
The guy I work for was not related to Monaghan (Domino's), he was related to someone that once owned that car. The guy did apparently have a few bucks but I got the impression he owned the car when it was likely at the bottom of its value curve whenever that was.
When did Self Starter start? Someone must have older issues of those and those would at least have Cadillac prices in em?
It is always interesting to look back 40,50 or 60 years and look at prices. Then remember, if you go back in age that far, what you thought of those prices. I can remember my father and I attending D. Cameron Peck`s sale in 1951 and my dad saying no way someone will pay $1000 for that 1930 V-16 Cadillac roadster- but someone did. Hindsight as they say is always 20/20 so if you are young enough today, in 30 years you will say- why did I not buy that 76 Cad convert- it sure was a bargain. The first picture below was taken from an old copy of the CCCA Illinois Region Dashboard and look at the Duesenberg prices for 1955. The second picture is part of the auction flyer we were given at the 1951 Peck sale and notice the minimum bid for the 30 Cad roadster. Bill
I bought a number 3 56 sedan deville around 1975-76 for 1,000. Sold it in the early 80's needing engine work for 600. In 1970 I was offered a Lasalle, I think it was a 1939 that was used by an Ohio Governor at one time, the seller was giving me a deal at 900 which was a fortune to me at the time.
Kids came before cars !
One of my first car purchases, at the age of 13 (no, I was not allowed to drive it) was a pretty nice, original '59 Coupe de Ville in 1972, for $350. It was then, as now, tremendously appealing to me, but at the time it was just a big old used car. I sold it after a few months because it needed a trans overhaul that was going to cost as much as I paid for the car, and I couldn't afford that on my paperboy income. In '83, I bought my '59 60S as a complete, running but tired car for $1000. I have some Self -Starters from the mid-80s; I'll try and dig them out and get some prices.
Hello TJ
Interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.
I just found a CLC Self Starter January 1967
1938 Cadillac V-16 model 9029 Convertible Sedan Fleetwood. Factory radio, 59,000 miles, complete. Original maroon paint, good leather, new denmans, new radiator, 1966 rebuilt all water pumps, fuel pumps, carburetors and rewired ignition. Tuned and runs well. Asking 60¢ per lb. Terms for qualified buyer. Also would consider trade, particularly for construction or ranch equipment.
(The 2014 current price for this car is 150k)
I couldn't find any LaSalle vehicles for sale.
So roughly 4000 pounds, thats $2400.
Thats 1/2 price of a new 67 Callais which was $5k. $2700 would have bought you a new base model Firebird in 67.
I'm guessing in 67 many new cars were in that $2400 range so you could buy a new car or a almost 30 year old Cadillac.
Just about any late-60's or early-70's Mopar with a hemi. They were still a bit expensive in the late 70's, but we're just about at the bottom of their value then.
And any Pontiac with a SD455 or 455-HO
$20K to $40K in the late 1970s, say 1978, would be the equivalent of about $72K to $144K today. You should be able to get a couple of nice 1959 Eldos, certainly Seville or even pretty decent Broughams, for under $144K still today.
As far as brand new in 1978, I think the highest priced new American car was the Lincoln Mk V Diamond Jubilee Edition which was about $20K to $22K+ sticker price. The highest priced Cadillac that year would've probably been the Seville Elegante at around $17K to $20K+ sticker price.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on December 26, 2013, 03:26:45 PM
You should be able to get a couple of nice 1959 Eldos, certainly Seville or even pretty decent Broughams, for under $144K still today.
If we're talking a pair of 59 Seville's or 59/60 Brougham than I agree. 59 Biarritz or a Nice 57/58 Brougham could singularly eat up that budget of course.
Considering Eric's values of 59 Biarritz being sold for less than 20k up through the mid 80's I would say you definitely had a lot more buying power back then.
Quote from: INTMD8 on December 26, 2013, 06:14:43 PM
Considering Eric's values of 59 Biarritz being sold for less than 20k up through the mid 80's I would say you definitely had a lot more buying power back then.
Sure but we are also comparing cars at different stages of the value curve. 20 year old cars, what a 1959 Eldorado would've been in the late 1970s, generally don't have high values as they are often considered to be too new for serious collector interest (especially today) and too old for reliable daily driver use (especially back then). A 20 year old Cadillac today would be a 1994 model and not worth a whole lot for the above reasons but in the coming decades will see varying degrees of collector value more or less just as 1959 Cadillacs went through value changes over time.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on December 26, 2013, 08:06:56 PM
Sure but we are also comparing cars at different stages of the value curve. 20 year old cars, what a 1959 Eldorado would've been in the late 1970s, generally don't have high values as they are often considered to be too new for serious collector interest
Of course, I thought that was the topic :D
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 24, 2013, 01:30:21 PM
Lets say you were an automotive enthusiast in the late 1970's with $20k-40k burning a hole in your pocket, what could you buy both new or used? Anyone have a Hemmings or similar from that era? I assume you could get a couple 59 Eldo's or a Continentals?
Quote from: George K Hashem on December 26, 2013, 07:25:11 PM
That's what it seems like. More buying power in the 80's, does that mean the market now is generally overpriced and due for a correction?
As Big Apple Caddy mentioned, they just weren't old enough then to have appreciated in value. (Think mid 90's Cadillac prices today)
I think now that they are appreciated and recognized as iconic classics, 50's Cad's will continue to trend upwards in value. Of course there are always market fluctuations like with anything else but I can't think of any reason there would be any significant drop in value.
Quote from: INTMD8 on December 26, 2013, 08:35:03 PM
Of course, I thought that was the topic :D
Sort of but the OP's comparison question had two variables; not only different selling years (late '70s vs today) but different car ages (20 y/o vs 55 y/o) as well. I was more referring to your reference to buying power and was essentially commenting that
like age cars, eliminating one variable, would be a better buying power comparison "then" vs "now" due to value stages cars go through.
Quote from: INTMD8 on December 26, 2013, 08:40:12 PM
I think now that they are appreciated and recognized as iconic classics, 50's Cad's will continue to trend upwards in value. Of course there are always market fluctuations like with anything else but I can't think of any reason there would be any significant drop in value.
I wonder really how much upward trend there will continue to be as people most connected to that '50s era age and eventually get out of the hobby and therefore remove some of the demand.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on December 27, 2013, 10:34:47 AM
I wonder really how much upward trend there will continue to be as people most connected to that '50s era age and eventually get out of the hobby and therefore remove some of the demand.
I have commented on this issue many times and while trying to maintain a sense of objectivity, I simply don't see such a situation coming to pass in foreseeable future for some of the following reasons:
- Recognized & prestigious top-of-the-line product in its day.
- Relative scarcity.
- Peak of distinctive styling (1930s & 1950s) - 30s being limited to the truly elite; '50s to a much broader audience.
- Highly symbolic & iconic - of an unprecedented era of wealth creation and economic prosperity & expansion (1950s).
- Overseas economic development - fueling increased demand.
While there is no "crystal ball", the presence of such factors usually bodes well for solid long term appreciation & collectability.
Agreed ^^^
I think nostalgia can be a reason for someone to buy a car but I don't think it's the only reason.
30's and prior Cadillac/LaSalle still command a lot of money and you would have to be near 100 years old now to have remembered growing up with one.
Part of this value/demand debate also depends on how one wants to evaluate increasing or decreasing values e.g. ignoring or factoring in inflation. A car that was worth $50K in 2000 and is worth $60K today has seen a 20% value increase unless you factor in inflation which would actually show about an 11% to 12% value decrease.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on December 27, 2013, 03:10:05 PM
Part of this value/demand debate also depends on how one wants to evaluate increasing or decreasing values e.g. ignoring or factoring in inflation. A car that was worth $50K in 2000 and is worth $60K today has seen a 20% value increase unless you factor in inflation which would actually show about an 11% to 12% value decrease.
If you really want to get down to brass tacks, consider that $1.00 invested in the S&P 500 in 1976 would be worth ~ $42.00 today.
By that measure, if someone paid $25,000 for a '76 ELC new, the car would need to be worth ~
$1,000,000 today - which doesn't even take into account holding costs such as maintenance, insurance, storage, and...heaven forbid...interest - if the car had been financed when new. When all that has been factored in, the car would need to be worth closer to $1.5M+ today.
There are perhaps only a handful of cars in the world whose value outpaced investment rate of return - even without racking up a single mile - when purchased
new.
Let's break down Eric's example.
It's 1985, 59 Biarritz is $20k.
Calculating inflation, that 1985 20k is about 43,500 today, which isn't going to buy anyone a nice 59 Biarritz, so considering inflation and considering the car has aged, it has also appreciated throughout the years. (well, at least from 1985 until today though you could break it down between different time periods).
What's a 59 Biarritz worth today? Conservatively 175K+ for a nice example?
1985 to 2013 rate of inflation 116%
1985 to 2013 Biarritz appreciation 773%
About right?
I'm sure someone could have invested that cash and made more but I would rather have an empty bank account and a full garage rather than the other way around :)
All that being said, I think the original intent of this thread was simply to ask what 20-40k would have bought in the late 70's, which is a fun conversation and I don't think anyone here is ignoring vehicle aging or inflation.
Hello Professor Moran
Nice analytical synopsis of automobile investments.
Hopefully it will spur LaSalle purchases and stimulate CLC membership. Thank you
Quote from: ericdev on December 27, 2013, 04:11:09 PM
If you really want to get down to brass tacks, consider that $1.00 invested in the S&P 500 in 1976 would be worth ~ $42.00 today.
By that measure, if someone paid $25,000 for a '76 ELC new, the car would need to be worth ~ $1,000,000 today - which doesn't even take into account holding costs such as maintenance, insurance, storage, and...heaven forbid...interest - if the car had been financed when new. When all that has been factored in, the car would need to be worth closer to $1.5M+ today.
There are perhaps only a handful of cars in the world whose value outpaced investment rate of return - even without racking up a single mile - when purchased new.
I wasn't so much getting into investment return over time but rather what the market was supporting in current dollars at given times.
For example, according to an NADA Classic, Collectible and Special Interest Car Appraisal Guide I have the average value of a 1938 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 Formal 7 Passenger Sedan in 2000 was $31,300. NADA today lists the average value of that same car as $34,600.
One side, ignoring inflation, could essentially argue that the demand vs. supply for this car has increased based on its increased market value.
However, factor in inflation and the $31,300 in 2000 converts to about $42,400 today which means the current NADA value of $34,600 would show a
decreased demand vs. supply based on its
decreased market value. The current market "values" this car less, not more, today compared to 2000.
Quote from: INTMD8 on December 27, 2013, 04:24:29 PM
All that being said, I think the original intent of this thread was simply to ask what 20-40k would have bought in the late 70's, which is a fun conversation and I don't think anyone here is ignoring vehicle aging or inflation.
Sorry for taking this subject thread down a different path. :)
Quote from: B Garrett on December 24, 2013, 06:58:22 PM
I bought a number 3 56 sedan deville around 1975-76 for 1,000. Sold it in the early 80's needing engine work for 600. In 1970 I was offered a Lasalle, I think it was a 1939 that was used by an Ohio Governor at one time, the seller was giving me a deal at 900 which was a fortune to me at the time.
Kids came before cars !
Good points B Garrett...let us not forget however that in 1950 something that cost $5000 then would today be the equivilent of paying $48,354 -- sooo, I guess my point is that we think of that 5k in today's money, but really someone who paid 5k for something back then it would be the equiv of paying $50k for something in today's money.
Regards,
MB
We are not too far off topic. My main question wasn't about investments and adjusted for inflation it was just if you had the money at that time what could you get.
Just a refresher what the original question was:
Lets say you were an automotive enthusiast in the late 1970's with $20k-40k burning a hole in your pocket, what could you buy both new or used?
What I would like to see is more ads and such from various eras. The 50's auction list posted earlier in the thread was interesting to see. That's the kind of stuff I would like to see more of.
A few Eldorado Brougham ads from when they were new/untitled or a few years old.
Palm Beach Post - January 17, 1958
$13,500 in 1958 would be about $109,000 today. $11,000 would be about $89,000. A $20,000 savings.
Palm Beach Daily News - January 12, 1959
$9,000 in 1959 would be about $72,000 today. $7,500 would be about $60,000.
Evening Independent - August 31, 1962
$4,500 in 1962 would be about $35,000 today.
Enjoyed the period advertising.
Back in the early '60s, my father had a chance to buy a '58 Eldorado Brougham for $1,200 (dealer to dealer wholesale) but he passed on it feeling the car's overcomplexity would make it far too difficult to resell.
Back in those days, air suspended cars were looked upon something akin to a millstone.
I once remember looking at a 1966 NADA Guide which listed values for 1959 Seville & Biarritz @ $975 and $1,075 respectively; while a Coupe deVille was listed @ $1,375.
Regarding this topic it will be interesting following these upcoming acutions in January:
http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1064754
http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1064006
http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1064272
http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1064473
Here are values given from the July 1966 issue of NADA guidebook for 1959 & 1960 Cadillac.
NADA's editorial policy is to provide used car values for the previous 7 model years, therefore 1966 would be the final year for 1959 values to be given.
I was way off on the values as I had remembered them.
An interesting snapshot of the used car market for Cadillacs.
The average lifespan of cars back then just wasn't what it is today and the comparatively poor resale values shown in the 1966 guide help reflect that. The 1966 NADA average wholesale of a five year old ('61) Sedan DeVille was less than 16% of its original base price. Compare that to the current NADA average trade-in value of a five year old ('08) CTS which is over 37% of its original base price.
1986 49 price guide :<)
The values of the Series 61 and Series 62 club coupes and sedans were listed as almost the same in that 1986 guide while today a club coupe will bring a lot more than a sedan.
I remember being in Florida in march of 1980,seeing a plymouth Superbird,was lime green,had a fresh coat of paint on it,was all ready to drive away,this was at a local Dodge dealer,it was 5500.00 or offers,That car would have been a good investment.With 20-40 K back then you could have had a lot of nice tin in your driveway for that kind of money,the internet wasnt around so people didnt really know what stuff was worth then.I did want the superbird,but as i was from canada,we had a 15 year or older rule to import cars into Canada then,so i didnt really try too hard. Harvey
I just pulled out a 1987 Hemmings. Prices are all over the place. "59 Biarritz "restored to be the best" - $75k; '58 Brougham, good condition but could use cosmetics, - $13.5k ; '57 Brougham, "once of the nicest originals, 31k miles- $24.9k "but lets talk;" '58 Seville trophy winner, $9.2k; 1940 V16 Conv. Sedan "I don't believe there is a better one" - $135K; '59 62 coupe, new paint, condition 2-3, $6.5k;58 Brougham outstanding, #2 low-mile original, $17k; '59 Biarritz, new paint, needs some interior and mechanical, $14.9 or offerC; 61 Fleetwood 60S 23k miles, drives like new, $8k. Finally , not one, but two '53 Eldos (no further info)- $11k each "please buy these cars, I need the money." Ah, the good old days!
Self-Starter 1986 ads plus SF bay area Examiner 1953 when I was one year old :<)
Some of those 80's prices are higher than I would have expected.