1966 Cadillac Deville sedan
Asking for your opinion on ignition points or electronic the good the bad or suggestions please
I keep all of my cars 100% as they came from the factory - points work well and are easy to change. If your car was designed for points, my opinion - keep them.
Are you currently having some issues?
Yes sir
What sort of issues? I'm all for electronics but lets make sure there is not some other issue that won't be solved with a conversion.
One issues I have had with points lately is that about 95.36% of the current production ones seem to be total crap on a good day. Standard Ignition's Blue Streak line is the only brand that has not yet let me down. Most of the other formerly good names are either gone or now import garbage. I actually had an engine that had issues so I finally did a partial rebuild on it. After the rebuild it still didn't run right. I was so mad I just parked the thing for a couple years. Was killing time in a small town with an old time parts store with some old time employees that knew their stuff and told them what I had. Without looking at a book or computer they went and got Standard set off the shelf. I installed em and the thing started up old gas and all and has run great ever since. I have not even had to clean em in 3+ years now. Everything else it seemed like I always had to mess with them and replace them often even if they looked decent.
Do you have a dwell meter? Connect it up and rev the engine. The reading should stay smooth and steady. If its jumping around that is a sign that the bushings and or shaft is worn in the distributor. That will for sure will cause an erratic spark. It could also effect a electronic conversion. Some don't have tight clearance requirements and others do.
Another thing you can do for troubleshooting is with a hand operated vacuum pump operate the vacuum advance while its running with the meter connected. Same as before reading should stay smooth and steady. If you see any jumping it could be a cracked wire. Could be the wire you see that runs from the points to the coil. Could be the harder to see (I can't remember these at the moment) braided wire inside that connects the floating point plate to the body of the distributor.
I have three 1970 Cadillacs and one has Pertronix and the other two do not. There is absolutely no difference between the performance, starting, idling and the like between the two ignitions. Given that points and condensers often lasted 30 k miles, but should be changed every 12k miles, 12k miles on a hobby car is often 5 years. So there is no significant difference or advantage provided either is operating correctly.
The problem is most new points are total crap and most electronic conversion kits are nice. It is nice to keep them original and plus they will still run after an EMP.
Bottom line is it does not matter that much. If I had a car that was going to be driven frequently and enjoyed, maybe I would go with Pertronix, and if it was a show car, might go with points and condenser. Either way, I carry spare parts. The effort (for guys who do not adjust points and dwell often) to change the points and condenser is about the same as the Pertronix, but Pertronix costs about $100.
Houston,
All the above discussion aside, I installed a Pertronix "electronic/points conversion" in my '66 after a couple of significant downpours where water on the road was great enough to get into the distributor and cause problems. They went countless miles for over 15 years and I am sure they are still working for the new owner. The "trick" with all electronic conversions is getting the clearances close to exact. The instructions that come with the sets are very clear and if you follow them the set-up should be bullet proof.
If you stick to points after you have verified everything else (in the distributor as welll as the fuel system) is correct, I would stay away from "uni-sets" where the condenser and the points are one piece. For what ever the reason in over 20 years of trying them they have never been successful FOR ME.
gREG sURFAS
I would keep the P&C, and find the best quality ACDelco uni-set point s & condenser set you can get from Rock Auto. My car starts in about 1/10 of a second, hot or cold. As everyone here already knows, I consider HEI to be blasphemous on anything 1973 or earlier, especially since you can adjust the points on the GM V8s while the car is running with the dist cap window and a 1/8 Allen key.
The most telling statement made about electronic ignition is that EVERYONE who has one carries a set of points and condenser with them at all times!
Houston -
Now that we've given our input, what specifically is the problem with your car?
skipping misfiring off and on .. when its not skipping it has a hesitation or choking out when you give it gas
the points have pitting and the plastic bump that rides the shaft has warn down.
list of items replaced
wires, plugs (gapped), coil
carb was rebuild about 2 years ago
Quote from: houstonlayne on April 19, 2015, 03:18:06 PM
skipping misfiring off and on .. when its not skipping it has a hesitation or choking out when you give it gas
the points have pitting and the plastic bump that rides the shaft has warn down.
list of items replaced
wires, plugs (gapped), coil
carb was rebuild about 2 years ago
I would get a new set of Blue Streak points and a condenser, adjust the dwell to 30 degrees and set the timing and see how it runs.
If you just re-gapped old plugs, buy a new set!
With that list of symptoms I would not make a major change like converting to electronic. Like I said I'm all for it in general but in this case I kinda doubt its going to help your issues, may even cause more.
Are you doing this work yourself? A shop? A friend? Either way I think I would get a new good quality set of points and condenser in there and get em PROPERLY set with a dwell meter and keep an eye on the stability of the dwell reading. If its not steady you have to solve that problem before moving on. Even if the engine is not running well due to fuel or mechanical issues the dwell reading should be stable.
I read at least one other person also likes the Standard brand points. DR2371XP and DR70 is the parts I would buy. Rock Auto has em for $20. Its a common brand and application so I would think most parts stores could order em if they don't have em in stock. AC just is not what they used to be but still may be better than some of the other brands out there today. For what its worth I too have not had good luck with the 'uni' point and condenser sets.
Looking at the Rock catalog I see they have the ground and primary wires too and they are very inexpensive. Both have to flex as the vacuum advance operates so with some age and miles they can develop internal cracks which can cause intermittent issues especially if/when the vacuum advance operates. If I was ordering I may get those just to have em.
I run points on all my old cars. I agree that the new ones are crap, but there is an endless supply of NOS ones on E-Bay.
I've had decent luck with ACDelco from Rock Auto - there are differing quality items. You want the ones with the hole in the center of one of the two points so that pitting is minimized. Plus lube that little 8 point dist cam lobe!
If it is missing and/or 'choking out," replace the condenser. Most people just ignore them and I had a hell of a time with a bad one.
Jeff
I agree, get the car running right and then after that consider converting to electronic if you want to. Since points and condenser are inexpensive, I would change them out with a known quality set just to eliminate that as a source of the problem. Hopefully that is it.
Since my 1929 341B has a dual point distributor so that each set of points can operate just 4 cylinders on each bank of the V-8 the use of a pertronix system is out. ;D
Looking for a REALLY GOOD set of points to buy???? ;)
E-TRON DURALIFE`S ARE THE ONLY ONES TO GET.....PERIOD......I have never ever had a problem with them and ALWAYS use the unisets...I`ve used them for perhaps the last 10-15 years since finding them
part # D1007HD for the unisets ( about $12-25 on ebay....shop around) :)
part# D106PS HD for just the contact set (comes in a pack of 3) ...about $12-18 on e-pay ;D
friends,Klacker
Quote from: m-mmanSince my 1929 341B has a dual point distributor so that each set of points
can operate just 4 cylinders on each bank of the V-8 the use of a pertronix system is out.
You must have 2 ignition coils? Interesting that they did that, I see it as admission
that a single 6V system just can't keep up with the rpms and 8 cylinders. Eventually
they needed 12V systems to try and keep up; some of the performance versions used
dual points in parallel to handle it. Bruce Roe
2 coils? Interesting!
No in 1929 there was just 1 coil but 2 points with just 4 operating lobes in the distributor. Timing is achieved by moving and synchronizing the points then moving the cam on the distributor shaft after lining up the timing marks on the flywheel..
Some cars like the 38-40 V-16 used 2 distributors and coils (and 2 carburetors) all functioning like 2 straight 8s joined at he crankshaft.
I think some of this craziness had more to do with learning the best way to design a system. An engine with one distributor using a cam lobe for each cylinder and having the timing set by twisting the distributor ended up being the best method only after a lot of experimentation.
Here's my take on it:
- I installed the Petronix Ignitor II on my 1964 CDV about 10 years ago and ran the black "stock looking" hotter Flame Thrower II coil with zero issues for 7 years.
3 Years ago I upgraded to the Petronix Ignitor III and the Flamethrower III coil and have had zero issues.
- I have never kept a spare set of points nor have I needed a spare set of points
- I like the way it all tucks under the stock distributor cap and looks original. I have judged the past 2 GN's and we were not removing distributor caps to see what lurked underneath.
- I would believe a new set of points with dwell correctly set will give "close to" same performance as the Ignitor II/III. With the Flamethrower II/III higher voltage coil the car does seem to have more power and think that coupled with the Ignitor II/III gives it the performance advantage for anyone wanting to tweak their ignition performance.
- In 10 years I have installed Pertronix units (II then III) for a total time commitment of about 1 hr. I Have not had to worry about cleaning, replacing or adjusting points once.
- I am gradually restoring most of the "look" of my 64 CDV to original but I will be hard pressed to remove the Pertronix. It has worked very well for me.
For those interested we keep a breakdown of the differences of the Petronix I, II, and III setup on our 1963/64 Chapter Website at this link: http://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blogs/pertronix-comparison (http://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blogs/pertronix-comparison)
Jason -
We could debate this issue till the cows come home. With quality points/condenser proper dwell and timing, all of our cars should run exceptionally! I know mine runs beautifully and at idle you could place a glass of water on the air cleaner and not see a ripple. By the mid-1950's, the engineers at GM got it right and the added window for dwell adjustment was the icing on the cake.
I have friends with both horror and wonderful stories about Petronix units and on my Lincoln Forum there has been much mixed discusion. If Petronix works for you - great; points/condenser perform just fine for me.
Jon, Both have worked for me. I grew up with points ignition. In fact I ran a dual point setup on my low 12 second qtr mile street/strip 68 Camaro from my youth. Dial it in and you could get some great performance... but that usually meant some quality time on the Sun Machine and dwell meter in hand the day before. There was nothing negative about points stated, except that you have to replace and adjust them which I actually find rewarding if I am in the mood and have the time, and as you stated a finely tuned Cadillac runs great. But in 50 years, there is technology that can make it run better. Regardless if it is fuel delivery or ignition, improvements have come a long way and for me and the selling point (no pun intended) is that it all goes under the original cap unseen and looks original. I am a fan of originality, but still have a hot rod heart and I can feel the difference with the Pertronix III setup. On my 64 CDV there was nothing wrong with the regular hypoid rear end, but the first time I brought in a parts car with the limited slip/controlled differential it went under the car, as I love those little 2 tire fish tail burnouts when the "urge" hits me! LOL
Jason -
Understood! LOL
An advantage electronic has over points, is you don't have to keep adjusting electronic ignitions as you would with points to compensate for wear. And no more inadvertently cooking a set of points by leaving the key "on" with the engine not running. Also, an electronic igniter is more forgiving if there is some play in the distributor.
Bill
Quote from: m-mmanNo in 1929 there was just 1 coil but 2 points with just 4 operating lobes in the distributor. Timing is achieved by moving and synchronizing the points then moving the cam on the distributor shaft after lining up the timing marks on the flywheel..
Some cars like the 38-40 V-16 used 2 distributors and coils (and 2 carburetors) all functioning like 2 straight 8s joined at the crankshaft.
I think some of this craziness had more to do with learning the best way to design a system. An engine with one distributor using a cam lobe for each cylinder and having the timing set by twisting the distributor ended up being the best method only after a lot of experimentation.
I think using 2 complete 8 cylinder ignitions on a V16 avoided a bunch of custom parts;
I would have done the same. If the 29 only has one ign coil and 4 lobes, I'll guess they
take turns closing and then opening to fire the coil.
As I have said, points will do you for a few miles a year at moderate speeds in good
weather. None of those things applied to the half million miles I drove points cars in
the 60s and 70s. I was so tired of cylinders missing when the carb was wide open,
changing points 4 times a year, changing everything else frequently so the weak ign
didn't get even weaker, ign washed out in severe wet conditions or affected by frost;
extra drain on the weak generator. I built an electronic ign on my first 62, which
really helped; kept experimenting till HEI came out. Bruce Roe
I would imagine Huston has one of those pesky job things that keeps him from working on the car all the time. Maybe we will get more info or an update this weekend.
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on April 19, 2015, 11:34:17 AM
... after a couple of significant downpours where water on the road was great enough to get into the distributor and cause problems.
Greg: try some silicone on the bottom of the distributor cap, did the trick for me.
Too much advance in the timing? That can cause a kick back during starting and do that to a starter.
You need to find (or fabricate) a starter support bracket . If you place that bracket on the front side of the starter to the engine block , it would not "twist" under the starting load when the timing is off and break the nose.