Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Eldosaurus Rex on October 31, 2016, 01:10:18 PM

Title: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Eldosaurus Rex on October 31, 2016, 01:10:18 PM
  I got it.

  Just had to keep spinning the wheel and wait for Lady Luck!
  Eventually, I hit TDC on #1 comp stroke with the timing marks aligned at 0!
  It couldn't have been more on spot!  Bingo!
  Hence the big smile in the photo!    ;D

  Popped the dizzy in correctly and the Eldosaurus roared to life!
  Made a few quick adjustments to tame her down, let it run for a few then shut her down.

  I may call it a day and start the fine tuning tomorrow.

E.L.D.O.  Extra Large Driving Option    ;D

Leo




                         Stick a Cork in it!

  After perusing the shop manual again, I looked at the section on removing the balancer.  Because I can't see a dang thing down there!  (Engine in car)

  According to section 6, chapter 65a, para 14

14. Remove cork plug from end of crankshaft.    ???
      I don't think I can get a corkscrew in there!

  Then there's that Puller Screw J-21052-2 in fig.6-112

  So what to do then?  Pull the cork, find a bolt to fit and I'm off to the races?
  If so, I can't imagine how I'm going to pop that cork or what the bolt size/thread need be...

  Not sure if I'd have to remove the pully.  Yep.  Not sure!

There has got to be an easier way!

(Photos below)

Leo






Greets!

  Without doubt an easy solution to those that know!
I am not one one of them at this point!

  I'm trying to dead time the Eldosaurus.  Setting up the timing sync from scratch.  Using the starter to bump it is futile...close but no cigar.

There seems to be just a big hole in the center of the balancer, no place to insert a drive?

  All plugs removed, distributor as well...

  Naturally, I tried to get a good grip and manhandle it, yeah I don't know what I was thinking.  Might as well try pushing a Caddy up a hill!

  I can't find a place to put a tool to.  I'm perplexed!

I'm starting to feel like an "exspurt".
X= mathematical expression for (Unknown).
A "spurt" is a drip under pressure.
Therefore, many exspurts are merely unknown drips under pressure!

  Q.  How do I manually turn the engine over?


  I thank you all in advance for your help!

Leo
 
 
Title: Re: 429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: 76eldo on October 31, 2016, 01:25:07 PM
On a 60 there is a 13/16 hex bolt on the front of the crank.  I am not sure what the actual thread size would be.  You have no bolt in there at all?  Not sure what's correct for the 64.

PS...  For cranking over with no plugs in the engine it should be fine but not recommended for cranking the engine with plugs in @ full compression.

Brian
Title: Re: [UPDATE]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: cadillactim on October 31, 2016, 04:23:56 PM
The cork is simply to keep dust out of the hole. Just pull it out. The balancer is just pressed on the crank, there is no bolt like Chevys. To remove just use a heavy duty puller (3 bolt kind) and remove three of the crank pulley bolts for the puller. There is a threaded hole in the crank to use a hub installer for reassembly.

But if all you are doing us getting TDC, you don.t need to remove the balancer. Just get some gloves and turn the crank pulley a little at a time using both hands. Get it close withe starter bumps, then finish it by hand. If you don't want to use the timing marks, remove the #1 spark plug and put a screwdriver in the hole (AFTER you are done with the starter bumps). Watch the screwdriver rise while turning crank pulley by hand as it reaches TDC.

Tim
Title: Re: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Scot Minesinger on October 31, 2016, 08:03:13 PM
The threads should be 9/16 fine.  I bought a threaded rod from Fastenal and some nuts and washers, made my own puller and presser back on tool.  Here is a picture of the tool.  I drilled a hole thru nut and threaded rod to put a pin thru it.  One wrench keeps threaded rod from turning while the other wrench turns the nut to pull off or press on the balancer.  Very easy job with correct tool.

Tim, how do you know if it is at top of exhaust stroke or top of compression stroke with screw driver in spark plug hole method?  Would not having the timing marks be good enough to be at top dead center?
Title: Re: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: chrisntam on October 31, 2016, 09:16:16 PM
You look like Bono (lead singer/U2) with those glasses on.

8)
Title: Re: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: savemy67 on October 31, 2016, 09:48:05 PM
Hello Leo,

I recently had a need to turn my 67's 429 by hand.  I bought a 9/16 - 18 x 2" hex cap screw (fine thread), and a couple of 9/16 flat washers.  I removed the cork from the front of the crankshaft by pulling it out by hand.  If the cork has been in the crank for a long time, it may or may not come out in one piece.  You may need a small screwdriver or pick.  If it crumbles, be sure to remove all the bits.  I put some anti-seize on the hex cap screw and screwed it and the washers into the front of the crank using a 1/2 inch drive deep socket and a breaker bar.  I had to do this from under the car as all the belt driven accessories blocked access from above.  The car was on the ground.  You could get more clearance if your raise the car's front end.

Since I work by myself, I could not turn the engine and feel the compression pressure at the number one spark plug hole at the same time.  You can remove the driver's side valve cover and watch the position of the number one cylinder intake and exhaust valve rocker arms.  As the timing marks align, you can observe if the number one cylinder is on its compression stroke - no valve movement - or on its exhaust stroke - exhaust valve movement.

There is no need to remove the pulley or the balancer to rotate the engine by hand.  Good luck.

Christopher Winter
Title: Re: 429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Eldosaurus Rex on November 01, 2016, 09:49:18 AM
Quote from: 76eldo on October 31, 2016, 01:25:07 PM
On a 60 there is a 13/16 hex bolt on the front of the crank.  I am not sure what the actual thread size would be.  You have no bolt in there at all?  Not sure what's correct for the 64.

PS...  For cranking over with no plugs in the engine it should be fine but not recommended for cranking the engine with plugs in @ full compression.

Brian

Hi Brian,
  As it turned out, no bolt but a place to insert one!
I eventually bumped the starter until I hit TDC on comp stroke.
Somehow I lucked out and hit it right on the money!

  As I stated in my first post, plugs were removed.  Not a chance of hand turning with 10.5:1 ratio!  Well, maybe if I could've gotten a better grip!

Leo
Title: Re: [UPDATE]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Eldosaurus Rex on November 01, 2016, 10:17:26 AM
Quote from: cadillactim on October 31, 2016, 04:23:56 PM
The cork is simply to keep dust out of the hole. Just pull it out. The balancer is just pressed on the crank, there is no bolt like Chevys. To remove just use a heavy duty puller (3 bolt kind) and remove three of the crank pulley bolts for the puller. There is a threaded hole in the crank to use a hub installer for reassembly.

But if all you are doing us getting TDC, you don.t need to remove the balancer. Just get some gloves and turn the crank pulley a little at a time using both hands. Get it close withe starter bumps, then finish it by hand. If you don't want to use the timing marks, remove the #1 spark plug and put a screwdriver in the hole (AFTER you are done with the starter bumps). Watch the screwdriver rise while turning crank pulley by hand as it reaches TDC.

Tim

Hi Tim,

  I used the paper towel in the plug hole method, a great visual indicator!
The paper towel will be ejected on the compression stroke.  As far as the screwdriver, I never put metal in the cylinder, I use a wooden dowel to check height .

  Working alone, I placed my iPad mini in the engine bay with camera on the #1 and placed a FaceTime call to myself on my iPhone in the car!  :)  I could see when the towel popped out, but the 1/2 second video delay had me going past TDC every time...except the last one!  Right on spot, TDC, comp stroke!

  i found in the manual that it was a threaded hole for a puller...that was NOT the easier way I was seeking!

  My air ride atmospheric piston pump is mounted below the balancer and I could not get a very good grip or leverage on it.

  Eventually, I was able to bump the starter until I lucked out and hit TDC on comp stroke right on the money, timing mark at 0!

Thanks for your input!

Leo
Title: Re: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Eldosaurus Rex on November 01, 2016, 10:36:00 AM
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on October 31, 2016, 08:03:13 PM
The threads should be 9/16 fine.  I bought a threaded rod from Fastenal and some nuts and washers, made my own puller and presser back on tool.  Here is a picture of the tool.  I drilled a hole thru nut and threaded rod to put a pin thru it.  One wrench keeps threaded rod from turning while the other wrench turns the nut to pull off or press on the balancer.  Very easy job with correct tool.

Tim, how do you know if it is at top of exhaust stroke or top of compression stroke with screw driver in spark plug hole method?  Would not having the timing marks be good enough to be at top dead center?

Hi Scot!

  That was the info I sought, thread size/type!  I have a couple of pullers, but that was not the easier route I was seeking so I never even got them out!
  I was thinking of maybe pulling two of the smaller mounting bolts on the pully and putting in two long bolts temporarily, placing a large screwdriver or bar across them for turning leverage...but there's hardly any room for that maneuver either!
  Eventually, I was able to bump the starter and lucked out big time hitting TDC on comp stroke at 0 degrees on the timing mark!

  Lesson learned-Sometimes you just need time, patience and repetition to achieve your goal!

  I agree about the screwdriver.  The paper towel method is preferred.  Never put a metal object in the cylinder and then crank the engine!  The only metal in there should be a spark plug!  My opinion, others milage may vary!  The driver or dowel with rise and fall twice, whereas the paper towel will only eject from the plug well on the comp stroke when both valves are closed.  Both accurate and safe.  Timing marks of course verify position.

Thank you for your input!

Leo
Title: Re: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Eldosaurus Rex on November 01, 2016, 10:46:29 AM
Quote from: chrisntam on October 31, 2016, 09:16:16 PM
You look like Bono (lead singer/U2) with those glasses on.

8)

Hey Chris!

  Dem dere be my fancy Snap-On safety glasses...made in China. *sigh*

  Actually, I am a singer/musician/entertainer by trade!  But I'm no Bono!

Here are a couple of links!

https://musolist.com/muso/26725-leo-caruso-bass-vox

http://www.bandmix.com/leo-caruso/

http://poundoflife.tripod.com/index.html

  You may notice that my "stage name" is Caruso (Moms maiden name).
A common privacy practice in my business and easier to pronounce than McNerney!

  Leo  (#o}===#
Title: Re: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Eldosaurus Rex on November 01, 2016, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: savemy67 on October 31, 2016, 09:48:05 PM
Hello Leo,

I recently had a need to turn my 67's 429 by hand.  I bought a 9/16 - 18 x 2" hex cap screw (fine thread), and a couple of 9/16 flat washers.  I removed the cork from the front of the crankshaft by pulling it out by hand.  If the cork has been in the crank for a long time, it may or may not come out in one piece.  You may need a small screwdriver or pick.  If it crumbles, be sure to remove all the bits.  I put some anti-seize on the hex cap screw and screwed it and the washers into the front of the crank using a 1/2 inch drive deep socket and a breaker bar.  I had to do this from under the car as all the belt driven accessories blocked access from above.  The car was on the ground.  You could get more clearance if your raise the car's front end.

Since I work by myself, I could not turn the engine and feel the compression pressure at the number one spark plug hole at the same time.  You can remove the driver's side valve cover and watch the position of the number one cylinder intake and exhaust valve rocker arms.  As the timing marks align, you can observe if the number one cylinder is on its compression stroke - no valve movement - or on its exhaust stroke - exhaust valve movement.

There is no need to remove the pulley or the balancer to rotate the engine by hand.  Good luck.

Christopher Winter

Hi Christopher!

  Thank you for your input!
  I eventually bumped the starter until I hit TDC on comp stroke.
Somehow I lucked out and hit it right on the money!

Leo
Title: Re: 429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 01, 2016, 06:32:32 PM
Quote from: Eldosaurus Rex on November 01, 2016, 09:49:18 AM
As I stated in my first post, plugs were removed.  Not a chance of hand turning with 10.5:1 ratio!  Well, maybe if I could've gotten a better grip!  Leo   
I had to have a slight chuckle when I read this paragraph.

No matter how high the Compression Ratio is, when the plugs are out, there is no compression whatsoever, just friction.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: [UPDATE 2 - I did it!]429 How to manually turn crank to TDC?
Post by: Scot Minesinger on November 01, 2016, 09:21:45 PM
Even with plugs in a 10.5 to 1.0 engine can be turned by hand.  Plugs out super easy