Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: william_b_noble on November 22, 2017, 02:16:23 PM

Title: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on November 22, 2017, 02:16:23 PM
I have a small number of interesting cars, the relevant one here is a 59 Eldorado (all stock, older restoration), I had JC Taylor coverage for about 40 years, but they won't renew because they require all cars to be in an enclosed and locked facility.  So right now all my nice vintage cars are licensed "permanent non operation status", which means I can't drive them.  Haggerty and Grundy also require a fully enclosed locked facility.  Honestly, I'd be better off to donate the cars to charity than to spend the millions dollars it would cost to tear down my house and build a new house and a much larger garage in this current real-estate climate- so I wonder if there is an alternative.

Anyone have any success?   of course my regular insurance company can cover them, but it's more expensive, particularly for cars that might be driven once or twice per year - I don't think I've put 5,000 miles on the 59 since I restored it in 1981.

so, looking for suggestions.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: D.Smith on November 22, 2017, 06:43:03 PM
Your 59 that was restored in 1981 and has sat outside since 1981 has only been driven 5,000 miles in 36 years?
That's 138 miles a year. 

Sell the car.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on November 22, 2017, 07:30:41 PM
sure - make me an offer, I got some value data from trying to insure it. if it was gone I could get the next car out easier.  But I will point out that sitting under a car cover where I live is like being in an insulated heated and air conditioned garage in the Midwest.  I just like the looks of the car, but I don't really like driving it all that much - I have some much smaller cars I like to drive.  I drove it to the club meet at the Madonna inn, but since then I think I've only used it for a couple of weddings.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: 76eldo on November 22, 2017, 07:34:37 PM
Donate them to me and I'll rent a warehouse and get them insured.
All kidding aside, if you have valuable collector cars and they are sitting outside maybe consider selling some and keep your favorite one or two and rent a garage?

I've got about 11 cars insured with Grundy and they are all inside.

Brian
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Jeff Wilk on November 22, 2017, 09:06:13 PM
Id try Hagerty and the others again as my 40 year Collector car Insurance experience shows that they will insure them in different types of storage situations but will adjust the price
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: TJ Hopland on November 23, 2017, 11:14:26 AM
Would they consider one of those tent like things a full enclosure?

Does the zoning in your area (or perhaps more importantly your wife) allow for something like a shipping container?  Those are often a reasonable option for storage and they can be decorated so they don't look too bad.   Putting something like a 59 in one may require some sort of mod so you can open the door enough to get in and out or you would have to push/pull it in with the doors shut.   That may be a reasonable option if you think ahead.  You could mount a pulley or winch on the floor in front of the car.   You also want to read up on the different options for ventilation.   In theory most of the containers are sealed but the ones they sell cheap tend to be well used.  Tons of info online about various ways to vent them.    We have one that has those simple whirly attic vents on the roof and some maybe 6x6 vents down low in each corner.  I almost never see any condensation inside. 
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: m-mman on November 23, 2017, 03:23:03 PM
I am sorry I dont understand. Enclosed? Locked?   ???

I refuse to believe that your cars are truly outside fully exposed to the elements. Your 59 has NOT been living under a tarp for 30 years.

Collector insurance is low because the insurers are taking a low risk. A car that is rarely driven has a low chance of being in an accident. A car that is stored in a 'protective structure' has a low chance of experiencing other types of damage.

I have Hagerty. Yes, they want to know (be told?) that the cars are protected inside a (pick one) <barn, garage, building>. The words 'locked' are not in MY policy. Nor has anyone ever come by to inspect my 'locks'.

Hagerty seems to be the most liberal as to recreational driving and occasional use. (And if you are driving your collector car daily, then it is not a collector car.)

Something does not add up. You and the insurance companies are obviously not communicating. You can get collector insurance if you want it.
Something else is happening here. You need to talk to them.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: 55 CDV Fan 82 on November 23, 2017, 05:42:53 PM

What would you want for it if you sold it?  Love the color!
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Jay Friedman on November 23, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
While we are on the subject of insurance, I would like to digress a bit.  As m-mman mentioned Hagerty and Grundy are the most liberal in terms of recreational driving and occasional use.  If I had to choose between these two, can anyone tell me whether one is better than the other in any way?  Are there are any other points of comparison? 

Thanks,
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Mike Josephic CLC #3877 on November 24, 2017, 01:12:37 AM
I don't know from my OWN personal experience (thankfully) but
that of a friend.  My friend had a restored '55 Eldorado like mine
(but a different color) that was involved in a fire.  The whole engine
compartment and half the car was toast from the heat.  He took it
to a reputable restoration house and got their estimate.  Hagerty
cut him a check for that amount -- case closed.

I thinks that speaks volumes since the cost approached 6 figures.

BTW, I also insure with Hagerty and have for 20 years.

Mike
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: e.kempton on November 24, 2017, 10:54:26 AM
You might try American Collectors Insurance 888-450-5904.  They say "alternate garaging options may be permitted contact our representative"
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: cadillac ken on November 24, 2017, 11:41:54 AM
Just be sure the words "Agreed Value" are what describe your policy.  "Guaranteed value" "replacement value" "stated value" and other comforting words will leave you devastated when the unthinkable happens.  You will find that you will not be "guaranteed" anything and "replacement" value can have many factors the insurance company will exploit to reduce their payout.

I found this out the hard way.  To add it took over a year for them to settle the claim with a "stated value" policy I had with them after my car was a total loss as a result of a teenager running a red light.

I will not name names here, but this policy was with one of the biggest insurance companies out there that regularly advertise on TV. And a company I had all my insurance with for over 25 years.

Agreed Value policies are the only ones that will pay out the amount of value you and the insurance company "agree" to regarding the loss of your vehicle-- prior to signing on the dotted line.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Mike Josephic CLC #3877 on November 24, 2017, 02:13:18 PM
That's why I hate the company that has "FARM" as part of their name.

They really want to insure your collector car, but "stated value" is all
they will allow.  However, as the previous poster pointed out, they will
really shaft you when it comes time to pay.  These guys did it to me on my
wife's 1995 Seville.  That car was like new, only 75K miles and I had put
over $6K in parts in it over a two year period.

They gave me a grand total of $3k to settle it -- only after I agreed to have
it totaled.  Otherwise, I would have gotten "0".

Mike
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: cadillac ken on November 24, 2017, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Mike Josephic  CLC #3877 on November 24, 2017, 02:13:18 PM
That's why I hate the company that has "FARM" as part of their name.

They really want to insure your collector car, but "stated value" is all
they will allow.  However, as the previous poster pointed out, they will
really shaft you when it comes time to pay.  These guys did it to me on my
wife's 1995 Seville.  That car was like new, only 75K miles and I had put
over $6K in parts in it over a two year period.

They gave me a grand total of $3k to settle it -- only after I agreed to have
it totaled.  Otherwise, I would have gotten "0". 

Mike


BINGO!
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on November 24, 2017, 09:07:03 PM
well, let's see - I called Grundy, Hagarty, JC Taylor - that pretty much covers it - each said in my area they will insure NO car that is not in enclosed locked storage.  So, I could rent a 5 car garage - I did find a one car garage for $411 per month, everything else was more expensive - so $2,000 per month for rental $24 grand per year - I don't think that's terribly practical - the '59 runs well but it's only a 50 to 60K car, and it is one of the more valuable in my pile - as for building - in a 40 by 160 foot lot, it would take three stories - with permits that's going to be well over a million $$ here, I think (no I didn't get estimates) - these crappy houses sell for 1.5 million and get torn down and build up a bit and sell for 3.5 to 5 million - a garage would add almost no value - so that isn't really a sensible choice either.

Oh, and not "under a tarp" - under a proper car cover designed for outside storage, changed about every 5 years as the sun breaks it down.

I think what it comes down to is there is no practical collector's car insurance available on the los angeles west side - Jay Leno has a nice enclosed garage, but most of us don't.

as for $$ for the car - offer me over 50K and we can talk.  it needs tires, and there are some scrapes on the paint that can be touched up (I have some matching paint), the hood should be repainted eventually.  the interior is "new" - leather and some 1960 Cadillac fabric I was able to find, and I've pretty much rebuilt everything - and I have the large folder of receipts to back that statement up.  (and yes, it has the original tri-power and it has a letter from the California air resources board allowing me to keep the draft tube rather than install a smog device)

follow up - a commercial storage place about 10 miles away will rent me a 10X20 storage locker suitable for vehicle storage for $528 per month.  that's for one car's worth of storage.   farther away could be cheaper, but then I'd never drive the cars.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: cadillac ken on November 24, 2017, 09:49:03 PM
well that stinks.  Not to be a wise guy but if houses are going for that kind of money in your area, I sell and move.  Obviously you enjoy your hobby.  Just a shame you cannot enjoy it where you currently are.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: gkhashem on November 24, 2017, 10:38:11 PM

from the website

Haggerty


Do You Qualify for Our Classic Car Insurance?

In order to qualify for our Guaranteed Value collector car insurance, you must meet the following requirements:
Usage

Our policy allows you to use your collector vehicle for club functions, exhibitions, organized meets, tours and even occasional pleasure driving â€" it just can't be your daily driver.
Storage

Though we prefer that collector vehicles are stored in an enclosed, secure structure when not in use â€" such as a private garage, pole barn or storage unit â€" we will consider other storage types, including*:

    Carports
    Driveways
    Parking garages
    Car hauling trailers

I guess they do not like your area.  I bet due to the wildfires and other issues maybe?
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: m-mman on November 24, 2017, 11:52:01 PM
It is well known that the west side of Los Angles is NOT a car friendly area.  >:(  This goes for daily (luxury) drivers as well as any collector cars.   :'(
BTW Jay Leno's cars are NOT in West LA. His house is, but his cars live in a warehouse Burbank.  :D

Personally I live on the east side of Los Angeles and I currently have 14 cars on my property.  ;D (Double size lot in a residential neighborhood) All but 3 are under a solid cover, (1944 horse barn)  none can be seen from the street.  8)

Hummmmmm, I guess maybe you do have some choices to make. . . . ?   :-\
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on November 25, 2017, 02:26:27 AM
yeah, it's odd --- I've been here for 40 years - I did have my 911 stolen from my driveway, but I think that's because the shop that I had do some work duplicated the key or tipped someone off - that was my daily driver so it was covered by insurance - of course it was stolen just as the value of that particular model started to go through the roof.  I spend quite a bit of time on the phone with Haggarty - they were nice, they were helpful, but they insisted that locked and covered was an absolute requirement.  And I guess for me, not needing AC is an absolute requirement, plus I work near LAX so for those that know the area, moving east would not add to my commuting pleasure.  And I like what I do, so retiring and moving to <name a cheaper place far from LA> doesn't really float my boat either. 

I guess there really is no answer ....   
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: cadillac ken on November 26, 2017, 12:44:43 PM
What I have found is getting collector car insurance is a lot like when you started out in life trying to get credit.  I still remember the excuse I always got when I graduated college and had my first job: "insufficient credit history".  Well, yeah, no kidding.  And just how do I get a credit history when you won't lend me any money or issue me a credit card(?) crickets...

I found once I established I was a good risk to the collector car insurance world it was a lot easier to shop it around and even add cars to the policy.

So perhaps you may want to find any company you can that will take on at least one of your cars and get signed up (agreed value policy of course).  Establish a little history with them and them maybe start adding your other cars.  Just a thought.  Also I have used American Modern for over 17 years.  No claims (so who knows how that would work out) but still it is an agreed value policy.  FWIW  Worth a call maybe. 

Best of luck just don't give up yet.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: gary griffin on November 26, 2017, 01:05:22 PM
I have the same quandary. I have an attached 4 car garage and a lift in one bay so can fit 5 cars. I would buy more lifts but was talked into building a guest suite over the first 3 bays. Big mistake but realized it too late. I have a long narrow 2-1/2 acres and moved the original house (1800 square feet) back 100 yards and it has a daylight basement with a 2 car deep garage and room for more cars if could figure out a way to turn the corner with them.  I rent the house out to help with property taxes but not the lower level.  Agent says OK although there are two addresses both have locked garages and they are on the same tax lot.  Main problem is I have a desire to have more cars and our daily drivers are always outside.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Blade on November 26, 2017, 01:12:21 PM
Why not rent a storage space? There are many heated (or unheated) storage places for rent, some even specialize in storing classic cars - we have one near by us. I think they start around $120 or so a month which I believe would worth it - especially if it makes the car insurable.

Another idea is look for someone who rents garage or other closed/locked space. My brother had a friend whose friend had a garage space available, she rented it for $50 a month. My brother at the time lived in an apartment and a private garage came as a good solution for him. His '58 Buick sat there for years, if he wanted to drive it he just drove there and picked it up.

You could store at least some of your cars and if you store more than one I'm sure they would give you discounts as well.

Wouldn't these or the likes would be acceptable solutions to get your car insured?
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on November 26, 2017, 04:22:54 PM
well, I had a policy for all the cars with JC Taylor for over 30 years, no claims.  you might think that would matter, no?  but it didn't - when I called them, they looked up my policy and still said "no way" if the cars were not in a fully enclosed and locked facility.  So, at least for that company, apparently history doesn't matter.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Rod Dahlgren #19496 on November 26, 2017, 06:27:27 PM
What I have to say is of no help. But if anyone from Hagerty is reading, they need to consider what happened to one of their insured. Our calamity in Napa Valley October 8 that burned the family home had been the storage for two cars insured by them. As it worked out,, BOTH cars were out at an event that day and had not yet been returned to the garage. Not my cars, my mom rented the two-car garage workshop to the owner of these two cars. Actually I was going to put a third car up there to make more room at home. Just did not get around to it. Mom had even told me to put one more of my cars in the garage at the house. The workshop Dad had built was detached and able to house three cars. The 2-car garage at the house was not used, Mom parked in the car port. Moms car burned up with the house and everything nearby.

QUESTION: What do the insurance companies say about enclosed trailers? Maybe if the location was behind a locked gate and the trailer had a tongue lock?

ADVICE for ALL of you: If you dont have an appraisal on file for your collector car, you may also have trouble collecting on a loss. SO now go ahead and tell me you KNOW what your car is worth and dont need an appraisal?   Try telling that to a judge or attorney or adjuster--- If you dont have one, dont call me after the fire and ask me to come and appraise your car. YES, I am getting calls.. It is not easy to tell these folks I can not help them. Just how am I supposed to look at a burned up car and certify that it was a concours quality show car before the fire? Sure, I can see that it WAS a 1953 Eldorado, but condition?  Unless there are records somewhere that link your car to the one lost, what can I do?
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on November 26, 2017, 09:12:14 PM
to Tibor Kiss - yes, your ideas would make sense in many areas, but Los Angeles, San Fransisco, and New York are not like many areas - space is in short supply and very expensive - I wouldn't need a heated place, it doesn't get that cold here, but a single car storage space is over $500 per month.  If I were to go an hour or two away, then price would be lower, in fact I could just buy a house for 100K or 200K, and use it for storage, but that far away is just like not having the stuff at all, it's too hard to get to in terms of time, you can't just take your "baby" out for a drive on a whim when it's 2 hours or more away.  Plus, remote storage invites vandalism and theft.

but this did remind me that there is a local "auto museum" that might be willing to display my car.... that's an avenue I forgot about .... maybe this will work out....  thanks for kicking my brain into gear.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on November 26, 2017, 09:21:11 PM
Quote from: william_b_noble on November 26, 2017, 04:22:54 PM
well, I had a policy for all the cars with JC Taylor for over 30 years, no claims.  you might think that would matter, no?  but it didn't - when I called them, they looked up my policy and still said "no way" if the cars were not in a fully enclosed and locked facility.  So, at least for that company, apparently history doesn't matter.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Blade on November 27, 2017, 10:07:22 PM
Quote from: william_b_noble on November 26, 2017, 09:12:14 PM
to Tibor Kiss - yes, your ideas would make sense in many areas, but Los Angeles, San Fransisco, and New York are not like many areas - space is in short supply and very expensive - I wouldn't need a heated place, it doesn't get that cold here, but a single car storage space is over $500 per month.  If I were to go an hour or two away, then price would be lower, in fact I could just buy a house for 100K or 200K, and use it for storage, but that far away is just like not having the stuff at all, it's too hard to get to in terms of time, you can't just take your "baby" out for a drive on a whim when it's 2 hours or more away.  Plus, remote storage invites vandalism and theft.

but this did remind me that there is a local "auto museum" that might be willing to display my car.... that's an avenue I forgot about .... maybe this will work out....  thanks for kicking my brain into gear.
Hello Bill,

I hear your concerns, I didn't think your storage prices could be that much higher. Of course here in the Midwest we have all the space we need - yet.

Sounds like that museum might work out the best for you but again they might give you limited access/usage to your vehicles. Give it a try and let us know how that goes. Would love to see some pictures of your cars after you found some suitable solution.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on November 27, 2017, 10:56:09 PM
some cars are on my web site, www.wbnoble.com - click on hobbies, then cars.  there is much more info on the 36 cad and it's multi decade restoration (darned car won't self-restore no matter how much I encourage it), and under the "articles I wrote" section there are some articles for skinned knuckles and some other magazines that include Cadillac and other vehicles.  have fun.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: Chuck Swanson on November 27, 2017, 11:14:05 PM
Quote from: Rod Dahlgren #19496 on November 26, 2017, 06:27:27 PM
...

ADVICE for ALL of you: If you dont have an appraisal on file for your collector car, you may also have trouble collecting on a loss. SO now go ahead and tell me you KNOW what your car is worth and dont need an appraisal?   Try telling that to a judge or attorney or adjuster--- If you dont have one, dont call me after the fire and ask me to come and appraise your car. YES, I am getting calls.. It is not easy to tell these folks I can not help them. Just how am I supposed to look at a burned up car and certify that it was a concours quality show car before the fire? Sure, I can see that it WAS a 1953 Eldorado, but condition?  Unless there are records somewhere that link your car to the one lost, what can I do?
You don't need an appraisal at all if you have "agreed value" policy.  Not an insurance expert here, but if you have a claim, car totaled, they will pay you the agreed value.  You may want an appraisal if you don't know your value, but appraisal not required with that type of policy.  Chuck
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: raugusti on November 28, 2017, 11:13:32 AM
Bill,
I don't know if it is an option for you, but around here the best rental storage for the money is a hanger at the local small airport.  Before I built my big garage I had half a dozen cars plus other stuff stored in a T-hanger.  About half of the hangers out there were being used for something other than air planes, mostly for cars.  The hanger on one side of me was full of mostly old Volvos and one around back stored a very nice selection of old Land Rovers.

Scott
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: m-mman on November 28, 2017, 04:47:54 PM
Welcome to Los Angeles county. Bigger and more crowded than most states.  Census population of 10 million people. Not including the commuters who come into the county daily for work. That likely numbers another 3-4 million.  LA CITY has 4 million within its boundary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County,_California

The OP lives on the west side. The most crowded side. Simple street parking is a premium in his area. (similar to Tokyo or Manhattan) It is a very car UNfriendly area. I resist and dread whenever I have to go to that area.

Airports in the LA area have waiting lists for hanger space for AIRPLANES. The general aviation airports that I am familiar with refuse to rent any space for anything that is not an aircraft.
Cars? Boxes? forget about it! I heard of a car person (without a pilot's license) who bought a non-operational airplane for the sole purpose of putting it into a hangar and having a place for his cars under the wings. So, airport is not an answer in the LA area. . . .

As discussed if you drive 30-60 miles away (1-2 hours in traffic) then yes. There are some affordable places to put cars. But would you like a 2-4 hour turnaround drive to just see your cars?
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: gkhashem on November 28, 2017, 06:04:30 PM
Ah..... What people will endure for some warm weather....The older I get the more I enjoy the show Mountain Men...crowds of humanity are over rated.
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: dochawk on January 14, 2018, 12:29:11 AM
A bit late, but . . .

I went to Hagerty 10 years ago when I got my '72.  They wouldn't insure it until I sent a picture of it *inside* of the garage (as well as the four directions).   As my door was broken at that time, I ended up with, of all places, Safeco.

Seriously.

Safeco will do an agreed value policy, and it can park outside.

It was, however, more expensive than Hagerty.

Once the garage was repaired, I went to Hagerty (again, the difference was huge, about 6:1).  This was '07 or so, and when I asked about taking my wife to dinner (not on the list of approved uses), the response was, "we'd prefer that you take her to a drive-in."

today, they've loosened a bit, and dinner is OK, and even a "blue moon' trip to work.

Also, it's out in the garage, but the most recent coverage described parking as "garage, something, or pole-" with the last clipped.  So maybe one of those pole-fabric garages cuts it now.

Also, Hagerty now has agents, believe it or not, which might help you figure it out.  I met one driving for Mecum.  She was trying to figure out how to stay in her corporate suit & heels and where the driver t-shirt at the same time :)

hawk

Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: william_b_noble on January 14, 2018, 01:14:04 AM
yeah, I'm sort of giving up - I may insure it for liability only so I can drive it occasionally - with my regular insurance company that won't be too expensive, particularly since I might drive it 100 miles per year or less.  I'm sort of torn - the car isn't all that fun for me to drive but it sure makes people stare - it's that or my '36, the problem with just leaving it in my driveway is that there is another car (a Morgan +4) that I would like to drive in the spring time, and it's just too much hassle to start and move two cars to get one out, and then repeat to put it back.   such a first world problem .....
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: chrisntam on January 14, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Quote from: william_b_noble on January 14, 2018, 01:14:04 AM
snip...and it's just too much hassle to start and move two cars to get one out, and then repeat to put it back.   such a first world problem .....

I have the same issue. It's an "event" to take the car out,  move one around front, get the other out of the way, back the car out, let it warm up, get the top down, make sure its seated down far enough, etc.

Rinse (drive) and repeat (put it all back).
Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: mark.bialzik on January 25, 2018, 05:55:28 PM
I have 3 cars insured with Heacock.  I checked rates with three other insurers this past year when rates were increased, including Hagerty. Heacock still has the best rates.

1953 Cadillac Series 60 Fleetwood
1974 Karmann-Ghia Convertible
1985 Jaguar XJ6

The only time I had to use the insurance was when the gas line on the Karmann-Ghia needed towing.  It was totally covered.

Title: Re: anyone successfully gotten collector insurance?
Post by: dochawk on January 25, 2018, 08:37:33 PM
A much younger me, really, *really* wanted a 1974 Karman Ghia convertible.

Back then, a very nice one was still only $5k at a dealer.

*sigh*

I had other priorities, like tuition . . . and by the time it cold have been an issue, I wanted much more steel . . .