Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gene Beaird on December 27, 2019, 12:14:32 PM

Title: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Gene Beaird on December 27, 2019, 12:14:32 PM
As the Subject says, the rear bumper fillers on our 1979 Seville are starting to crumble.  It also looks like they may have also reacted with the paint, or visa versa, so the paint is wrinkled.  In my limited search, it appears there may be only one option here, although there are several different vendors.   

So what are my options today, and what's good, or more-importantly, what's to be avoided?  I know some fitting will probably be required, but even ill-fitting fillers will be better than none at all.  I probably need to get them sooner than later. 

On the plus side, the units on the car seem to have lasted a lot longer than the vinyl rear wheel 'spats' on our 1986 SVO.  Those simply dropped off the car while it was sitting in the shop one day (almost the same day) about 10 years ago.  They all still met the same end, though, which really sux!! 
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: SixDucks on December 27, 2019, 07:04:51 PM
Gene,

Your BEST bet is to scour the internet for NOS parts or salvage yards for still intact OEM parts and have them 3D printed. It's really the only way to assure yourself that you will get factory fit and better than factory quality. This may prove to be a benefit for other Seville owners if the files are retained for additional orders.
I've seen 1st hand some of the current offerings, and they are absolutely terrible. I recently stopped in to the body shop I use and spied a 1980 Commemorative Edition Seville that was in for replacement of all the rear fillers. I was able to see the parts before installation and afterwards. My bodyman stated that he had hours and hours in trying to make them fit properly. He and I agreed that it wasn't even close. He also swore he would NEVER do another set. Afterwards he stepped out to see my 88' Brougham and wanted to know where I obtained my left rear filler... It's an
OEM part that at some point will also fail.
Last August I passed on a 74' Eldorado convertible because I disliked the quality of the replacement fillers.

Hope this helps,

Terry


Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Big Fins on December 28, 2019, 09:43:58 AM
I like Terry's idea of the 3D printing. The difference really shows if you read about the Eldorado restoration threads.

If not, this company has about the best that you are going to get in the re-pop world.

https://plasticpartsinc.com
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Gene Beaird on December 28, 2019, 01:28:12 PM
The pieces I have are already breaking up, and the outer surfaces are all wrinkled with bad paint, so these pieces are unlikely candidates for a scan for any reproduction, even if I had time and a scanner. 

I guess I'll search for NOS, and failing that, grab a repop set with the knowledge I'll be fitting the pieces before paint.  Sigh.

Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 28, 2019, 05:11:18 PM
Has anyone ever thought of making these "Fillers" out of metal, as in panel steel?

Seems as though they would never ever get "bent" unless the vehicle was hit, and as most collector cars seem to be treated a lot different to the run-of-the-mill grocery-getters, I can't see this being a problem.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: SixDucks on December 28, 2019, 06:57:18 PM
Bruce,

  The 3D printer can print the same consistent quality repeatedly on demand and can be used for ANY parts that the printer is capable of printing. To make these from steel or cast plastic would require tooling and space for the tooling to produce the needed parts. The required equipment is likely to be able to produce only one specific part. The printer could likely print parts for fillers or any other needed parts for many different applications. The right printer can produce parts for a '74 Eldorado as well as a '79 Seville.

Terry
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: TJ Hopland on December 28, 2019, 07:32:46 PM
Considering how simple the shape is on some of them I would think metal would be a good option. 

I'm certainly no expert on 3d printers and don't own one but I have been following them fairly closely.  What is keeping me from buying one is to really start making things you have to be able to design them and that is where the real skill and expensive software comes in. 

Now that we know I really don't know what I am talking about I don't think that 3d printing would be a good route for these.  I have no doubt it could be done with outstanding results but I suspect what that would cost would make hiring a skilled craftsman to make them from metal would seem like a bargain.  A $300 diy PLA printer certainly won't do it and I suspect a $3000 one would not even get the desired results.

If you want to see some neat 3d prints look up the Rutherford rocket engine, many of its major components are 3d printed.   Its not some experimental process either, 9 successful launches to date with 9 engines on each rocket.   Pretty sure those printers and the people that run them could crank out some nice car parts but I suspect the printers didn't come from the hobby store and the people that run them are making a bit more than minimum wage.   
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: 76eldo on December 28, 2019, 07:45:41 PM
3 D printing is not a viable option for this part. Way too complicated and expensive plus you need a perfect part to scan to create a file.

They make these already in an ABS material. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Do some web searching and find a vendor that looks good.

Brian
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Gene Beaird on January 03, 2020, 08:27:11 PM
Yeah, at least one side is broken, and all that's holding it together is many layers of paint and the bumper.  Looking at the ABS units now. 
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: MaR on January 04, 2020, 12:36:14 AM
Quote from: 76eldo on December 28, 2019, 07:45:41 PM
3 D printing is not a viable option for this part. Way too complicated and expensive plus you need a perfect part to scan to create a file.

They make these already in an ABS material. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Do some web searching and find a vendor that looks good.

Brian

There is no such thing as a "way to complex part" for a 3D printer and as for expense, right now, a good 3D printed part will be equivalent in price to a poorly made fiberglass or ABS part once the cost of getting the poor parts fitted is accounted for. You would never scan an existing part to generate a model to print, even an NOS part is not good enough for that. To do it correctly, you would measure a good part and created a model from that. As most people have found, the reproductions that are currently for sale are poor compared to the actual parts. Here are two of the front fillers for my '74 Eldorado that I have 3D printed. The reproductions that are available are nothing like the actual parts.

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_4950.JPG&hash=77f69f92174512bbecb5344632f6d6a9cdb7a6ea)

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5855.JPG&hash=68202ec23a86947d5be7020bde2eec407b4fd217)

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_6040.JPG&hash=a9913d554655f78055738438e8dccac2e9e56d0e)

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_6039.JPG&hash=f592a1d51c01cfc1d2f30a20c07238767a15c127)
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Glen on January 04, 2020, 01:01:03 AM
Is it possible to edit a scan?  Seems to me that editing a scan would be quicker than creating a file from scratch. 
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: 76eldo on January 04, 2020, 10:21:16 AM
I’ll stand by what I said.
You can take readily available parts and by doing some simple mods you can get them to fit.
I don’t know much about the 3D process but I do know 3 things.

1.  You need a good part to scan to generate a file for the printer.

2.  It would take many hours to “print” that part and the owners of these machines don’t do this stuff inexpensively.

3.  No one knows the longevity of the material that is used in this process.

It’s not like the parts are unavailable. I’ve put fillers on 76-79 Seville’s , numerous 76-78 Eldo’s
and 79-85 Eldo’s and Seville’s.  It’s not rocket science.

Here’s a web page I created www.sheffieldgarage.com/fillers.htm.

Brian
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: MaR on January 04, 2020, 11:10:30 AM
Quote from: 76eldo on January 04, 2020, 10:21:16 AM
I’ll stand by what I said.
You can take readily available parts and by doing some simple mods you can get them to fit.
I don’t know much about the 3D process but I do know 3 things.

1.  You need a good part to scan to generate a file for the printer.

2.  It would take many hours to “print” that part and the owners of these machines don’t do this stuff inexpensively.

3.  No one knows the longevity of the material that is used in this process.

It’s not like the parts are unavailable. I’ve put fillers on 76-79 Seville’s , numerous 76-78 Eldo’s
and 79-85 Eldo’s and Seville’s.  It’s not rocket science.

Here’s a web page I created www.sheffieldgarage.com/fillers.htm.

Brian
1) Suitable parts are easy to come by. I have found perfectly usable OEM specimens for every filler on my '74 Eldorado and once the part has been modeled, that's it, it's done.
2) There are many, many 3D printing services that print parts from your models. I have my parts printed at Shapeways and they are quite reasonable and offer many different materials. If I were willing to pay for it, I could even have them printed out of metal. For the prototypes, I use my own small 3D printer that I bought for under $200.
3) The materials are not a mystery, there are specification pages for each material and they are not some odd exotic stuff; the most common plastics are nylon and ABS.

Like I said before, there are fillers available but as you have seen, they don't fit very well and require modification to even remotely fit. I have also found that all the manufacturers have combined parts to fit a larger range. The rear fender extensions for the 74-78 Eldorados are a good example. There are two different fillers from those years and they are shaped differently but no manufacturer actually makes a differentiation between the two. I have both examples and when I'm finished modeling them, either style can be made on demand.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: MaR on January 04, 2020, 11:29:08 AM
Quote from: Glen on January 04, 2020, 01:01:03 AM
Is it possible to edit a scan?  Seems to me that editing a scan would be quicker than creating a file from scratch.
It is possible but it would frankly take longer to correct the model that it would to just create one from scratch. The best analogy I can come up with is building a house from scratch vs taking a 100 year old house and making everything plumb and square. Also, when you have a model made from scratch, you can much more easily take that model and make it into a different version. A good example of this is the ‘73 and ‘74 Eldorado headlight bucket to bumper trim. They are almost the same with the exception of where the filler meets the inner chrome trim. It’s different on either model year and modifying one years model to fit the other year is trivial on a scratch built model.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: SixDucks on January 04, 2020, 02:02:27 PM
I've been doing a little research on 3D printing and I'm certain that this technology can also be utilized to print EXACT duplicates of the rubber floor mats that are often missing or damaged. The 70's Eldorados come to mind.
Does anyone know if 3D printing is possible for lenses?

Terry
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: TJ Hopland on January 04, 2020, 03:42:19 PM
I have seen videos of people printing things like tail lights.  I have not seen them in person but on the videos they look decent, maybe not as good as the originals did when they were new but certainly better than an old faded cracked one. I'm not sure if the translucent materials are the types that can be done on basic printers of if you need a higher end one.  Also don't know how the material holds up to things like UV light.  UV and huge temp swings are not likely a big deal for collector cars that spend 99% of their times indoors. 

There are a few flexible materials now.   A floor mat is an interesting idea.  Have people done it and used them or are they just a for show thing?   I would think they would be somewhat expensive because of the size.   Uses a lot of material and requires a larger than typical consumer machine.   

There are machines now under $300 that can do high quality prints with multiple (but not all available) materials but the catch is they can only do maybe 4"x 4"x 4".   The 12 x 12 x 12's are not bad but you will notice a huge range in prices from maybe $600-$2000.   3d printers don't scale as easily as you would think.   Sure the print head could be the same as the small one and the motors that move things could be the same but keeping the precision and accuracy as things get bigger is where the expense comes in.   Same motors will take longer to accelerate the larger mass and not be able to stop it as precisely so to keep the quality you need a motor that can keep the larger mass in control which means better belts or gears which means better this and better that so all the sudden you have a $10k plus professional machine.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: SixDucks on January 04, 2020, 04:23:05 PM
Hi TJ,

I agree with you on the prohibitive cost of a printer large enough to print Eldorado floor and trunk mats. However as this technology becomes more common it seems likely this could be farmed out.
At some point I'll likely purchase a '74 Eldorado as well as a '74-76 Fleetwood Brougham or Talisman, that likely will need fillers. At that time perhaps I will can work with a supplier already familiar with the parts I'll be needing.

Terry 
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: M. Bankes on January 04, 2020, 07:30:20 PM
Hi
This has been a really interested thread. I have been trying to figure out how to 3D print these fillers and would really like to know more. Can you tell me more about how to create the files ?
Thanks
Michael
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: MaR on January 04, 2020, 08:35:29 PM
Quote from: M. Bankes on January 04, 2020, 07:30:20 PM
Hi
This has been a really interested thread. I have been trying to figure out how to 3D print these fillers and would really like to know more. Can you tell me more about how to create the files ?
Thanks
Michael
I use Solidworks to make the solid models. I will start out with either an NOS filler or a good used OEM one and then start laying it out. I will usually lay out the general profile by tracing the starting shape on a piece of 1/4" square graph paper so I can get a base shape and then from there I will measure the filler with digital calipers for the finer features. Along the way, I will 3D print various profiles to verify the fitment of the filler to the part of the car it is attached to. Once I have a good model, I will make a full 3D printed prototype for full verification of the fit and shape of the filler. After I'm happy with that, I will have it professionally printed by a 3D printing service out of a material that is suitable for painting.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: MaR on January 04, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
Here is my layout drawing for one of the fillers. The gray filler is the NOS filler I used as a reference.

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG-6800.jpg&hash=59ca0fe24bae9e6246449a0747dabaef1ee06adb)



Here are various prototypes sections I printed to check for fit:

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG-6802.jpg&hash=7b1d1f0bd8f761492a63fc50f4eed64c2fae02e4)




Here is the NOS part next to the professionally printed part:

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_4950.JPG&hash=77f69f92174512bbecb5344632f6d6a9cdb7a6ea)




Here it is painted:

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5139.JPG&hash=39ec6349612b8d03e2495926c8a97565f79948ba)




And here it is installed on the headlight housing it mounts to:

(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5140.JPG&hash=62dcfccf84421f8905592c88196e475e78bff4ae)
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: TJ Hopland on January 04, 2020, 09:42:33 PM
I never thought of or heard others mention the idea of making the parts at home on a cheap printer with cheap materials to confirm your design then sending it out to be done on the correct material.   Even if your printer wasn't big enough to do the whole part you could do the individual sections like in the photos or I have seen people that will just break the part into pieces in the software so it fits then assemble it like a puzzle to do the test fit.   

Quote from: M. Bankes on January 04, 2020, 07:30:20 PMCan you tell me more about how to create the files ?

That is what has kept me from getting a printer.   Today the printers are cheap and even supplies for them are not too expensive.  Its the software side and knowing how to use it that is slowing me down.  SolidWorks and Fusion360 are the big ones and they don't come cheap.   There are deals if you meet certain requirements like being a student but otherwise cost $1000+ per year.   The per year thing is also an issue for a hobbyist because I may go crazy and use it a ton for a month then not even open the program for 6 months. 

There are free and cheap programs but you get what you pay for and the other thing I have heard is they don't really work the same as each other so you spend time learning one you are almost having to start over again if and when you find out that it can no longer do what you need.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: MaR on January 05, 2020, 12:11:37 AM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on January 04, 2020, 09:42:33 PM
I never thought of or heard others mention the idea of making the parts at home on a cheap printer with cheap materials to confirm your design then sending it out to be done on the correct material.   Even if your printer wasn't big enough to do the whole part you could do the individual sections like in the photos or I have seen people that will just break the part into pieces in the software so it fits then assemble it like a puzzle to do the test fit.   

That is what has kept me from getting a printer.   Today the printers are cheap and even supplies for them are not too expensive.  Its the software side and knowing how to use it that is slowing me down.  SolidWorks and Fusion360 are the big ones and they don't come cheap.   There are deals if you meet certain requirements like being a student but otherwise cost $1000+ per year.   The per year thing is also an issue for a hobbyist because I may go crazy and use it a ton for a month then not even open the program for 6 months. 

There are free and cheap programs but you get what you pay for and the other thing I have heard is they don't really work the same as each other so you spend time learning one you are almost having to start over again if and when you find out that it can no longer do what you need.

Yep, the solid modeling software is what usually stops most people. There are free or low cost solutions but "your results may vary". I have been doing this kind of stuff for a long time so I have the tools and knowledge available to me. As for the printers themselves, If you are interested in them at all, the low cost prices point is certainly worth it just to play around.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Gene Beaird on January 05, 2020, 02:44:05 PM
Healthy conversation, indeed!  I'm not too sorry I started it.   :)

I do understand what it takes, and there is a steep learning curve for the software that I just don't have time for.  Additionally, as I mentioned before, at least one panel is already broken, being held onto the car by many layers of paint and the rear bumper itself.  The panels across the top of the bumper are also severely-wrinkled.  It looks like the last coat of paint either reacted with something, or they got sprayed with something before or after the paint was applied.  I'd expect them to just crumble if I tried to clean them up, even for a scan. 

It looks like a full set of front and rear covers are about $500 US, so I can take a gamble on getting a set and fitting them.  The car will never be a show car, for me, but not having any fillers really looks bad.  Current online searches reveal a single original outer filler panel, and it is used, not NOS, so no telling how long it would last after installation.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: J. Skelly on January 05, 2020, 09:53:55 PM
Mitchell,

That 3D work you did for your '74 Eldorado is fabulous, and I like the color of the car.  Brian has done a great job detailing step-by-step instructions for fitting the aftermarket parts.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen any cars with these aftermarket pieces that I would want on my '77.  As you stated, none are exact reproductions of the original pieces.  I shouldn't have to ream a channel in the horizontal rear pieces to be able to fit the small pieces of chrome-plated plastic trim that Cadillac was too cheap to make out of stainless steel.  The trim pieces also need to be reproduced.  I wonder if it is feasible to do those in 3D and have them produced in stainless?

Are you planning to make pieces available for other years with plans to sell them? 
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: MaR on January 06, 2020, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: J. Skelly on January 05, 2020, 09:53:55 PM
Mitchell,

That 3D work you did for your '74 Eldorado is fabulous, and I like the color of the car.  Brian has done a great job detailing step-by-step instructions for fitting the aftermarket parts.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen any cars with these aftermarket pieces that I would want on my '77.  As you stated, none are exact reproductions of the original pieces.  I shouldn't have to ream a channel in the horizontal rear pieces to be able to fit the small pieces of chrome-plated plastic trim that Cadillac was too cheap to make out of stainless steel.  The trim pieces also need to be reproduced.  I wonder if it is feasible to do those in 3D and have them produced in stainless?

Are you planning to make pieces available for other years with plans to sell them?
I am looking at those parts also. Right now, the most feasible route looks to be to make them out of stainless steel U channel as 3D printing in metal is still very expensive and is much more limited in size. The biggest issue I have found so far with the stainless channel route is the availability of U channel in the correct size.
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Tonyv_73 on February 25, 2020, 09:37:46 AM
Hey, Im looking to 3D model the rear bumper fillers for a 76 coupe deville, does anyone have any recommendations on where to get it printed? what material to use? how much it costs?  Ive 3D modeled smaller parts for cars, but never something to this scale
Title: Re: Need rear bumper fillers for our '79 Seville - what's available?
Post by: Gene Beaird on February 26, 2020, 11:02:13 AM
I received my set of fillers a bit ago. They do look like they'll need some finishing before painting, but I haven't checked for fitment yet.  Too many other projects in line ahead of that task.  They don't look too bad, though, and each section being in one piece is much better then a couple of fillers I have on the car that are not a single piece.   :o

EDIT:  For clarification, I ordered a set from S&K Industries that Brian noted in his website on the subject posted earlier in this thread.  I have yet to get the box of parts out to the shop and even hold them up to the existing parts, but they look okay just looking at them.