Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mike Shawgo on November 07, 2007, 11:31:56 PM

Title: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Mike Shawgo on November 07, 2007, 11:31:56 PM
I'm wondering how some of you feel about driving a vintage Cadillac during the winter (in areas of snow) as more or less a daily driver.  I used to have a 1978 Seville in near-mint condition that I drove during the winter in Illinois.  However, after being chastised by friends and family for driving a vintage car in snow, I felt guilty about using it as a daily driver, sold it and bought a "winter" car which is not a vintage car.   (I already have a vintage Eldorado convertible for summer, and decided it wasn't practical to have two "summer only" cars.)

Now I find myself eyeing vintage Cadillacs on ebay, wondering if I could justify owning one that I could drive during the winter.

How do you feel?  As Cadillac-Lasalle Club members, do you feel we have a obligation to preserve vintage cars which are in good condition, not drive them in winter as daily drivers, or can we give ourselves permission to drive and enjoy them, even in winter?

--Mike
#20545
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: homeonprunehill on November 07, 2007, 11:56:04 PM
11-07-07
MIKE, go for it. Just be sure to wash it good on the under-side, often. Good Luck,JIM
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 08, 2007, 12:52:49 AM
Geez Mike,

A Vintage Car is one that is older than 1929.

Anything newer is just an old car.

Bruce.

PS.   Some old cars are better than others though.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Bill Gauch #23121 on November 08, 2007, 06:29:01 AM
You could always buy something that is less desirable, like a 4-door. The problem isn't the snow, really. It is the salt and sand on the roads. I would think, whatever you got, if you put a real good coat of wax on it and got a car wash every time it went above freezing, you wouldn't do too much damage. Actually, as long as you can somehow clean the wheel-wells, you would reduce your damage to a minimum. You would still be subject to chipping paint from sand though. Although, in my state the risk of sand damage runs until June before they sweep the streets.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Mark on November 08, 2007, 08:52:34 AM
The salt, especially salty slush gets into every crevice causing corrosion and damage.  It will seep under your door sills, residue on your feet will get into your carpets and eat the floors.  It will drip into your fenders and doors, splash up behind your quarter panels, into your door, hood & deck lid jambs - everywhere. 

Pretty much no matter what you do the salt willl cause damage.  And then of course some idiot will slide into you on an icy day. 

Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: TJ Hopland on November 08, 2007, 09:19:18 AM
I have a 78 CDV that I originally bought for $800 to part out.  It didnt look like a lost cause but had the typical for its age and being outside faded paint, cracked top, and cracked fillers, rust under the top and chrome on the fender, and headliner hanging down.  It also started once and died then wouldnt restart.   Guy had been trying to sell it for 2 years.  Started at $2500.  I got it to a friends and up on the lift and found that for the most part the frame and floors were in great shape.  I ended up fixing a bunch of little things like rusted out brake and fuel lines. Did a complete brake job (including hoses), tune up, belts hoses, and a couple of new tires. Spent around $900 in parts (not counting labor some I did, some retail, some trades) over a month or so and drove it all winter and spring.   I have a convert that is my summer car and my wife has a 66 mustang plus we both have newer cars.   I have had an ad on Craigs List since spring with all the details (both good and bad) and pictures along with an offer to send many more detailed pictures. Asking $1500 because I have no desire to loose money on the deal.  In 8 months I have had 0 real inquires (some about export and strange payments).  Last winter I picked up a 75 Eldo for $400 that looks alrignt but needs the same stuff to be a safe driver.  If I sell the deville I will get the eldo running since I like eldos better.  If not I will keep driving the deville till I feel I have got my value out of it and lower the price.  In my mind since I am offering it for sale if someone wants to 'save it' they can.  Same thing with the eldo I bought, it was for sale for over 6 months starting at $2000, I just couldnt resist when it got down to $400.   The thing that makes me cry is when I see about the demo derby cars.  Those guys travel around the country and pay real money, sometimes as high as $5k for a solid car.  Only good thing is many of them now Ebay the parts they dont need like trim and interior so at least other cars can be saved.

You mentioned you got another old car,  just think of things like the first gen Mustangs.  Those cars are pretty much crap across the board.  They were built to be cheap throw away cars. Look what they go for now.  I paid $1500 for one with no floors not running and think I got a great deal.  Just think someday some 'kid' is going to be at the gas station next to you not even giving your 70's cadillac a second look because him and all his buddies are going to be going ga ga over the 82 aeries K car he just got with the rare factory cassette option.  And what about the international Yugo club.......  Or what the first Prius' will be worth?
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: DaveW on November 08, 2007, 01:29:19 PM
Mike,

It would seem that only you can determine whether or not you have an obligation to preserve vintage cars.  Accordiing to the information on the "Learn About CLC" page, the club was initially founded to "encourage enthusiasts to maintain, preserve, and restore collectible Cadillacs....."

You could make the argument that by purchasing an old Cadillac and maintaining it to some level, even driving it in the winter, will leave the car in better condition than allowing someone else to have the car and give it sub-standard care.   You can also make the argument that if you did not purchase and drive the car it may have ended up in the junkyard sooner, therefore you are performing a service to the hobby.

What we think does not matter as much as how you feel about it.

Dave
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Mike #20545 on November 08, 2007, 02:29:46 PM
Good responses.  I'm just very conflicted about it, since when I had my 78 Seville (which took 1st place in its category at the Des Moines GN), I seemed to get a lot of looks and raised eyebrows when I said I used it as a daily driver, including in the winter.

Dave, I liked your comments--I guess even if I buy a car and drive it in the winter, it may last longer than if someone else bought it and didn't care for it (or turned it into a hot rod or something!).

--Mike
#20545
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: OK on November 08, 2007, 05:07:37 PM
I think it's great to drive an older car in the winter. It's a car, after all, and it's not like we have an obligation to treat them a particular way.  As long as you know what the elements might do and you're okay with that, I don't see the problem.  Some may raise eyebrows, but others will smile, and I'll bet the smiles outnumber the raised eyebrows.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Johnny F #662 on November 08, 2007, 07:17:12 PM
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 08, 2007, 12:52:49 AM
Geez Mike,

A Vintage Car is one that is older than 1929.

Anything newer is just an old car.

Bruce.

PS.   Some old cars are better than others though.


Where is this written?
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 08, 2007, 08:15:42 PM
Quote from: Johnny F #662 on November 08, 2007, 07:17:12 PM
Where is this written?
http://www.motorsm.com/classics/default.htm
GENERAL CLASSIFICATION:
    * 1900-1908 Veteran Cars
    * 1909-1930 Vintage Cars
    * 1931- Classic Cars
and
http://www.ivvcc.ie/
      Antique: pre 1905
      Veteran: 1905-1918
      Vintage: 1919-1930
      Post Vintage: 1931 â€" 1945
      Classic 1946 â€" 1982

Bruce >:D

Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 08, 2007, 08:20:53 PM
Quote from: South_paw on November 08, 2007, 08:14:43 PM
LOL, I searched it and found it "written" for you ;D  Check out this link. Scroll down to the bottom and view the timeline bar :)
I like the USA version

The Antique Automobile Club of America defines an Antique car as over 25 years old.

This would bring the Average car in everyday use in Tasmania into the Antique category.

But, yes, we do have a LOT of brand new cars running around, but the older cars still stay on the roads as they don't rust away, or break down.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: harvey b on November 09, 2007, 07:35:49 AM
hello all, reading the discussion on driving these older cars for winter,i live in P.E.I. Canada where we get a very harsh winter lots of snow lots of salt on the roads and not many older cars to choose from now,the crushers are getting them all.when i was younger we all used to put our"good" cars away for the winter and drive an old beater for the winter,it was a contest to see who could find the worst peice of crap to drive and last through the winter with it ;D.but now i am older and have a new car too,i would like to do this again someday,not sure what my wife would think of this,she does not like booster cables?,if i was to do it again i would find the best old car i could find and have it rust checked really good and wash it often.the rust check is a good product for this type of deal.about 15 years ago i drove a 1961 chrysler windsor for the winter,kept it clean and rustproofed,it seemed to suffer no real effects of the salt,i think the big fins made it slice through the snow better ::).  Harvey Bowness
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Richard Sills - CLC #936 on November 09, 2007, 12:59:58 PM
In 1975, a family friend was ready to trade in a 1967 Coupe deVille that she had purchased new.  This car was in like-new condition with less than 30,000 miles on it.  It was Capri Aqua with a black vinyl roof, had been garage kept every night of its life, and regularly serviced by the Cadillac dealer.  My friend was offered a nominal trade-in value (about $700), and offered it to me for that price.  I really wanted the car, but had no garage to keep it in.  The car would have had to sit in my driveway.  Although I would have kept it clean and waxed, I lamented the fact that by sitting outdoors the car would eventually deteriorate to some degree.

So, I passed on the car, concerned that I could not provide as high a level of care as this car deserved.  As a result, my friend sold it to another friend who needed a car for his teenage daughter who was learning how to drive.  Within the next year, the car was involved in several major accidents, and within two years it was in the junkyard. 

The lesson I learned:  if you are a Cadillac enthusiast and find one that you want to drive, go ahead and do it!  Because you appreciate cars in general, and Cadillacs in particular, you will probably give that car a much better home than most people who are likely to wind up with it.

Richard
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Andrew Straw on November 09, 2007, 01:36:10 PM
Hey, they drove them in winter in 1978.  Why not now? 

Andrew
21467
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Dan Reed on November 09, 2007, 03:13:02 PM
Mike,

If you want to drive your Cadillac in the snow - drive it in the snow. After all, you are a CLC member and an admirer of old cars so I'm sure your one who cares for all of your cars. I live in PA and we certainly get snow. I drive my '56 Cadillac all year round, but I choose not  to in the snow. That's just my choice - I prefer to drive my modern all-wheel-drive car in snow for the added safety. I'm not sure if I lost traction in my '56 that anything would stop it from skidding until it hit something larger than itself :)

Dan
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: harvey b on November 09, 2007, 08:15:49 PM
hello all,another way to look at this scenario is that we are all getting older and we might not be around to drive that neat old car next winter :'(,so if it feels right do it by all means,i seem to be reading a lot of obiyuaries lately of people that i know.who cares what somebody will think,they wish they had a car like that to drive anyway.go for it i would,let us know what you decide on for next winters ride?myself i would prefer a 1959 eldo conv,with a ripped top,to let the fresh air in?,just kidding. thanks Harvey Bowness
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: John Morris #23947 on November 10, 2007, 03:58:06 PM
I live in the beautiful west where there has never been a grain of salt used on the roads. I was unlucky enough to have gone to Pennsylvania for over 2 years starting up a small business. Besides the highest taxes, tolls, fines, fees, more laws, more rules, highest humidity, and trillions of hummingbird sized mosquitos that sound like squadrons of B-17s, the worst part was the horrible salt used by the hundreds of tons on the roads. 5 year old cars & trucks had gaping holes in the bodies. A few classics crept out of garages in summer, then vanished for the year. People thought 78 Caprices were classics!! I would NEVER drive a collector car in that crap, EVER! Even after the snow is gone the salt remains. Then it rains, salt gets thrown up, and the rot starts again year round. My undercarriage looked like it was frozen, there were so many salt crystals. Thank heavens I'm home.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Davidinhartford on November 11, 2007, 06:53:45 AM
I'm in Connecticut and I don't drive any classics in the winter.  As said, the road salt gets into every nook and cranny.    Especially those chrome rocker moldings.

I'll only take an old car out on a dry day.  And still only for a few miles.

I hate going on Ebay to find an old classic Cadillac I love, but to see rust bubbles all around the edges.  You just know it was used all winter.  Then when the bubbles began they decided to sell it.      At that point it is too late.

Preserving our cars for the next generation should be our goal.    Because as time goes by, each non-show car version of our car gets junked or parted out.   

If you want to drive a vintage Cadillac in the winter, buy a high mileage one with bad paint, faded top and probably would not have been restored by anyone in the future.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Mike Shawgo on November 11, 2007, 11:50:27 PM
There, see?  I was just about convinced I could go out and buy that mint condition 1980 Seville for my winter car, but then the last two posts sent my guilt into overdrive!

--Mike
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: 35-709 on November 12, 2007, 09:37:06 AM
I have to go with John Morris (Lordy I wish he'd get rid of that picture!) and DavidinHartford.  Buy something that is already a rust bucket for the winter.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Davidinhartford on November 13, 2007, 10:17:56 AM
Winter beater suggestions?

   1985 - 1987  Front drive DeVilles.    Cheap to buy,  front drive for the snow,  nobody is collecting them, and with their HT4100 engines they are disposable and undesirable.

   1986 -91 Sevilles and Eldorados.     Same reasons as above.

   1982 - 1985 any with the HT4100.      I just don't see these cars surviving into the next generation unless you drop a Chevy or Olds 5.0 engine in one.     The HT41 blundred engine will eventually self destruct.   Even today the Cadillac dealers don't want to see one drive up to the service entrance.    Find a cheap one on Ebay, put on a set of snow tires and enjoy the confort.    Try to keep off the guard rails.   

    I know, I know.   I agree that some of these 80s Cadillacs are really sharp looking.   Especially the 79-85 Eldorados.       But if they are to be collector cars in the far future, they will have to be trailered to shows.  And not just for protection, but because they don't run anymore.   Try going into a Cadillac service dept TODAY and try to get a ECM for a 1983 Eldorado.     When they stop laughing they'll refer you to a junkyard.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Dennis DiNorcia #19071 on November 13, 2007, 12:34:49 PM
Unless you are in an area that gets snow all winter long, why can you just enjoy it during  the winter on dry days only. I have a 1989 Sedan DeVille that is my daily driver and a 1968 Road Runner in original excellent condition but only gets driven in dry weather. I will not drive the Road Runner in the rain or the snow because to me I would like to keep the car in an "as-new" condition as possible. Also these older cars are more prone to rust out even when taken care of properly. The newer cars, seem to be less prone to rust. I don't think I have ever seen a 2000 or 2001 or 2007 (whatever the make) car with rust. But as mentioned before, it is your choice. I live in the Northeast and I feel I drive my car enough times throughout the year that if I need to keep it in for a few months of bad weather, then I don't mind it. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Perry G on December 03, 2007, 05:12:09 PM
My wife drove our 78 eldorado last winter when her 88 eldy wouldn't make it out of the driveway, She drove it two more days after that and the hell she got from others made her quit driving it. I told her "Hay,,it's YOURS,,, Do what you want with it". Needless to say I'm glad to see she did quit driving it, I don't haft to go to the car wash twice a week that way.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: EdDougher on December 06, 2007, 07:50:22 PM
Quote from: Richard Sills - CLC #936 on November 09, 2007, 12:59:58 PM
In 1975, a family friend was ready to trade in a 1967 Coupe deVille that she had purchased new.  This car was in like-new condition with less than 30,000 miles on it.  It was Capri Aqua with a black vinyl roof, had been garage kept every night of its life, and regularly serviced by the Cadillac dealer.  My friend was offered a nominal trade-in value (about $700), and offered it to me for that price.  I really wanted the car, but had no garage to keep it in.  The car would have had to sit in my driveway.  Although I would have kept it clean and waxed, I lamented the fact that by sitting outdoors the car would eventually deteriorate to some degree.

So, I passed on the car, concerned that I could not provide as high a level of care as this car deserved.  As a result, my friend sold it to another friend who needed a car for his teenage daughter who was learning how to drive.  Within the next year, the car was involved in several major accidents, and within two years it was in the junkyard. 

The lesson I learned:  if you are a Cadillac enthusiast and find one that you want to drive, go ahead and do it!  Because you appreciate cars in general, and Cadillacs in particular, you will probably give that car a much better home than most people who are likely to wind up with it.

Richard


That is painful to watch, isn't it?

About ten years ago, a local priest passed away, and his 1969 Calais Coupe went up for sale.  I had nowhere to put the car at the time, which wound up being sold for $6000.  It was a 20,000 mile COMPLETELY original black coupe with a burgundy cloth interior.  Even the cadmium plating under the hood was NEW!  Within about a year, the car was used by the bar owner who bought it as a driver, and little by little was trashed.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: TJ Hopland on December 07, 2007, 12:39:04 PM
I just got my 78 CDV back from where it had been stored and plan to drive it this winter.  Mice got in and left some evidence that they were there but so far I have not found and serious problems but Im afraid they may have been in the dash.  The vacuum hose harness for the climate control is hanging down under the dash.  Looks like more of the hood insulation is missing than before.  When it got dark on the way home I found out the headlights were not working so I had to do some creative stuff to get them on and get home.  I hope I dont find all my hood insulation packed around the headlight switch.

Its still for sale if anyone wants to 'save' it.
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Chris Short CLC 18814 on December 10, 2007, 12:51:06 AM
Heres my two cents..  Any Cadillac older than 1980 in any condition and any cadillac older than 1985 thats nice should not be driven in the winter..  Period.  The cold is ok but no salt..  If I saw a car that fit into those criteria above covered in salt someplace I'd track down the owner of that car so fast and give them the royal ride act...  I live in central wisconsin where everything is plasterd with salt and calcium.  Nothing lasts up here..  I have a neibor that about 8 years ago baught a perfect 79 Lincoln Mark from a lincoln collector..  Yes a collector.   A big beautiful car and he drove it year round..  Let it sit out..  He washed it in the summer but thats about it..  In 4 years it was trashed..  All around the padded top it was rusting and at the bottom of the doors...  It was a crying shame..  But it wasn't a Cadillac so I didn't say anything..  But still it was sad..  Old rust free cars don't last two minutes when you put them on the salt..  The paint under the car isn't like the day it was new to protect it..  Its thin and full of rock chips..  And undercoating the car will actualy speed up the rusting action.  You can think it, but don't do it..  ;)  Theres my opinion.. 
Chris Short
clc 18814
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: bill henry on December 10, 2007, 08:56:54 AM
now i have a little different opinion.9 years ago i bought a basket case 77 gmc 4wd pickup.i got a southern bed and cab and some new fenders and rebuilt and painted it. it looked sweet .then i took it to a local guy who makes his own undercoating out of a mix of grease oil and tar.then he touches it up every other year for free .i live north of pittsburg so you can imagine the winters here. that truck is not rusted out yet and it is my daily driver and i just sit back and laugh when the guys at work with the new ones talk about what it costs to get their fancy electronic 4wd fixed when it fails . i put in a heater core in about 3 hours a guy with a newer truck was told to trade it in before paying to have one put in . so get it take care of it and drive it man at least for a vintage truck. i will admit my 70cdv does not come out after october
Title: Re: Driving Vintage Cars in Winter
Post by: Chris Short CLC 18814 on December 11, 2007, 12:25:40 AM
I guess ya can get away with driveing in the winter if your really on top of things and watch it close..  I know 2 guys here in town that have early 80s Chevys and they look like new to and they drive them year round..  Not sure what they're secret is..  But I know one of the guys baught his truck new..  I would never drive a cadillac in the winter thats older than 1985..  Theres millions of old Fords and other lesser vehicles that we all can let the salt destroy..  Drive whatever ya want, and any year that ya want..  But its just not worth destroying a nice Caddy..
    My winter beater is a 1989 Fleetwood..  Its got 300K and runs like a watch..  Just goes and goes..  Its a nice car in my mind but it doesn't hurt me to drive it in the winter..  Thats what this car is for..  And its got SO many miles theres no reason to ever want to save this car...  Its great in the snow..  And gets pretty good gas mileage to..  And it keeps my late model Caddy off 90% of the salt..

Chris Short