possibly buying an old caddy, could use some advice

[crunk04gtp]

I'm looking at getting into a '68 sedan deville. However, I've learned the hard way that it's best to get advice from people who know before comitting to an older car. Sure wish someone would have warned me before I bought my '83 300sd. I've already had to sell a few kidneys to keep that one running. At any rate, here's the information I'm looking for:

What should I look for when purchasing in terms of problems which will be exorbitantly expensive?

What goes wrong on caddies of this era and how much am I looking at as far as operating costs go?

About how much should I expect to spend on a good condition example?

Thanks a bunch,
Bill

[Mark]

Bill

Its common for the passenger side exhaust manifold to crack and require replacement.  472s are very good engines with a big fan club.  Much better design than the 429 with thin cylinder walls, external oil pump & waterpump leakage problem.

68 Cads diecast hood lip moldings are prone to crack; hard to find a good original. 

Loved my 68 deVille convertible - personal opinion but much better looking than 65/66 or 69/70.  Hidden wipers were new that year; cleaned up the look of the windshield.   

[Johnny F #662]

You are very wise to ask questions before you jump in.  Allow me to make a few comments about the old car hobby, assuming that you are new to the hobby.  The most important factor is how much you are able to dedicate to the hobby.  Much depends on how much you want your car to be close to original.  Its always a good idea to start off with a really good example of the car you want.  It might appear to be on the expensive side, but many times its cheaper in the long run, as the current owner already has invested the time and money bring the car back to great condition.  This is especially helpful, if you aren't able to do much of the work yourself.  As stated already cars of different years have different nuances.  Myself I would prefer a car that isn't too old or too new, for the same reasons, cost of repair!  Cars of the 70's and late 80's are relative inexpensive to maintain.  Notice I say late 80's.  At all cost try to avoid 82-86's (HT 4100 engines).  In any event happy hunting, and just take your time finding the right one.

Oh yes, when you finally find your pride and joy, make sure you join the CLC, it will be the best investment you will make!

[Davidinhartford]

1968 Cadillacs are good cars.   As said above, the 472 engine was a good, trouble free design.    Mechanical parts should still be easy to get as well.   

The 68s didn't have lower chrome rocker moldings, thus they are less rust prone down there.    Although the front fenders can be rusty right behind the front wheel openings where snow and road spray build up.   

68s were also the first year of side marker lamps.   Which I think is good to have because they help you be more visable at night.   

As for price?     I'd say $5000 for a nice sedan.    You may find some for less, but they'll probably need work.    I've seen some for as high as $10,000 but I think that is way too high for a 4-door sedan.     Maybe a mint Coupe DeVille, but not a sedan.   

Just look around on the net and see what others are selling for.    Remember, just because they ASK for a fortune doesn't mean they are getting it.

[TJ Hopland]

I think the 68 Deville should be a good car.   The mechanical parts were common to many of the other cadillacs of the period and perhaps some other Gm's so there really shouldnt be any huge issues getting the 'normal' wear parts.  You may not be able to get them at your local parts store but at least you wont have to do the ebay thing on 'the last NOS part left in the world'.  I think disc brakes were an option (and a good upgrade if you plan to drive it a lot in modern traffic).  Body and interior parts can be tough as they are for just about any car thats not a Camero or Mustang sort of thing.  Being a sedan should be an advantage for you because they tend to be less desirable as collector cars so you should pay less to start with and perhaps be able to pick up another one for parts with a bad or missing motor. The rest of this info is for possible changes if you are planning to drive the car vs. keep it as a original show car or give you some clues to what a previous owner may have done.  The transmission is THM400 that was used in all the full size GM's except the cads used a longer tail shaft.  68 was also the first year they went with the standard BOP (buick,olds,pontiac) bellhousing design.  Repair parts and shift kits and such are fairly common.  A 'built' 200r4 is a fairly close match that I have heard of people swapping in to get overdrive if they drive a lot.  Motor was the first year for the 472 which in 70 got slight changes to make the 500 for the eldos.  Comprression dropped in 71 by huge dishes in the pistons.  Heads got designed for low compression in 74.  75-76 all cads got the 500. 76 MPEFI became an option. 77-79 smaller bore and lightened block made the 425. 80-81 more 'savings' made the 368 that had the option for TBI and in 81 the V8-6-4 multi displacement motor.  So you can see that that motor had a good long production run.  Yours should have plenty of power as is.   Only somewhat unusual thing is cadillac used a plastic coverd cam gear in the timing set.  They dont tend to hold up well with mileage and age.   Before you put many miles on the thing I would pull out the distributor and have a look down there to see what you can see.   If the engine is real dirty you may not be able to tell much but if its fairly clean you can see the edge of the gear enough to tell if its metal or plastic and if it is plastic how big the cracks are or how much is missing. New sets are still made. I have been told its best to avoid the $30 'stock' set and go for the 'performance' roller set for closer to $100.  I would guess at this age that you are going to have a few leaks you are going to want to deal with so unless there are large chunks missing from the gear I would run it for a while to see how you like the car and what else you have to fix then when you have a plan maybe pull the motor for a 'freshing up' which would include new seals and gaskets and the timing set.  Yours should be high compression which means its going to want the best gas you can find 91-92 octane.  I have never heard of anyone having issues with unleaded on these motors so I am assuming they were thinking ahead and had hardened valve seats from the get go.  HEI distributors are a popular and fairly easy swap if you dont like messing with points.  Only issue is clearance of the back belt that drives the AC and PS.  I have had cars with only one belt that seem to work fine.  If your AC doesnt work anyway you can just run belts direct to the PS and there is no clearance issues.  You can also find pulleys from later motors.   These motors were (and still are) popular for guys that want a large motor but dont want do do what everybody else is doing (ie opening up a catalog and ordering a 454,502, or 572 chevy crate motor) so there are some neat 'performance' parts for these things. Like anything that is not a SBC they dont come cheap but if you want a hot rod cad its pretty much the only way to go.

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

You are very wise to ask questions before you jump in.  Allow me to make a few comments about the old car hobby, assuming that you are new to the hobby.  The most important factor is how much you are able to dedicate to the hobby.  Much depends on how much you want your car to be close to original.  Its always a good idea to start off with a really good example of the car you want.  It might appear to be on the expensive side, but many times its cheaper in the long run, as the current owner already has invested the time and money bring the car back to great condition.  This is especially helpful, if you aren't able to do much of the work yourself.  As stated already cars of different years have different nuances.  Myself I would prefer a car that isn't too old or too new, for the same reasons, cost of repair!  Cars of the 70's and late 80's are relative inexpensive to maintain.  Notice I say late 80's.  At all cost try to avoid 82-86's (HT 4100 engines).  In any event happy hunting, and just take your time finding the right one.

Oh yes, when you finally find your pride and joy, make sure you join the CLC, it will be the best investment you will make!

Johnny was definitely right when he advised avoiding any Cadillac with the HT4100 engine, but that plague actually lasted  through '87, not '86.  

[crunk04gtp]

Thanks guys for all of the great information. If I do end up getting an older car it seems that I've found my forum. At any rate, this sounds like this is a car I might be able to afford... and more importantly afford to run. 7-8k is about what I'm looking to spend all things considered (including freshening up the interior if necessary, minor repairs etc). Is this feasible?
 

[TJ Hopland]

That should be easy to do for that price range.  Looking at the production numbers, 4 door sedan just under 10,000.  4 door hardtop sedan over 72,000.  64,000 coupes.  18,000 converts.  All under $6K new.  Deville looked like the most popular model by far.   Here in MN the mid-late 60's cads (especially 4 doors) can be had all the time for around $2K in what looks to be good complete condition. 70's a little less and 80's under $1000.  These are no where near show cars but good solid cars that have a lot of fun and learning left in them.

[caddykid60]

The engine years to avoid on the Brougham are 1981-1985.  Only the 1982-1985 Rear Drive Broughams had the HT4100 Engine.  1986 was the first year for the 5.0 Olds 4bbl Cast Iron Engine in the Brougham.  Not the most powerful engine, but very reliable.

[crunk04gtp]

Yeah, I used to have an '89 with a 307 and the D'elegance package. I drove that thing all over the southeast. Three vehicles later I've realized that there are only two types of cars: Cadillacs and then everything else.

[TJ Hopland]

If you already had that 89 brougham your next step should be one of the 70's (or that 68) you were talking about.   Only other thing I would look at if you wanted to put some work into it would be something like a Fleetwood Coupe from the early 80's.  Those didnt have many good engine options but I have been told that a 425 can be done fairly easily with minimal modifications. 

Do you need or like a 4 door?
How often would you drive it?
Is MPG an issue?

[crunk04gtp]

A four door is a preferable. But of course, beggars can't be choosers and if I found a really nice coupe for the right price I would go for it.

The Caddy would be for driving to school, and generally wherever I'll need it to mac on girls. I was doing the math and the Caddy would be looking at anywhere between 1500-3000 miles a year. The benz will be relegated to any sort of intensive driving, and I might even get a third very cheap, very reliable third car to serve as a failsafe. So no, mpg is not really an issue. If it was possibly to get a reasonably fuel efficient car I would go for it, but of course that's not going to happen.

I see where you're going talking about an early 80s fleetwood. I've been looking around online, and it seems that if I'm going to be picky it will entail a lot of driving across the country. I can handle the southeast, but once we're talking about upstate new york it's a different story. A broader range of choices would make things a lot easier. The thing is that I would only want to go earlier, like a '65 or something along those lines. But hearing that parts are readily available for the 472 was a major factor in deciding to go ahead with this. Is the same true of earlier engines?

[TJ Hopland]

If you like a 4 door stick with that because most people are looking for 2 doors so you should be able to get one a little cheaper.  Im thinking for what you are looking for a 68-76 would be the ticket.  Maybe even a limo from the same vintage??  77- more or less looked like the 89 you had.  There are pretty much no 'hot rod' parts for the pre 68 motors.  Just plain rebuild parts will vary year to year because some of the motors changed year to year.  The thing I like about the 70's ones (other than they are still near the bottom of the value curve) is that they had stuff that is real nice for driving like disc brakes and electronic ignition.  That can sometimes be done on earlier ones but not as cheap or easy as the 70's ones.  Another thing is by the 70's a lot of the smaller parts seemed to be GM so they are more common because they fit more cars.  That can be a big advantage when you start talking about things like transmissions, wheel bearings, and brakes.

[Johnny F #662]

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[John Morris #23947]

As I'm a fellow of "limited means" but also an old car nut, I prefer finding cars that have all the dash components functional, as well as other gizmos. I can put a propellor on a ship in my sleep, cabs on frames, axles & engine/tranny swaps, and paint very nicely. But, restoring dashes and upholstery is not my bag, and is very costly. I look for cars with all those issues in good shape, also no danged rust, but maybe needing an engine, paint, tires. I can do all that at home for very minimal cost, saving tons on labor. Rust free cars are all over out west, outside of "The Salt Belt"

[Greg Powers]

If your are not buying this car from a CLC member or from someone with whom you have dealt before, travel to check it out in person or contact someone who can.(Possibly a CLC member in that area or an appraiser-some cost involved) It may sound excessive, but there is no real way to judge a car from pictures and someone's personal judgements.  I have seen cars that I would call a nice driver represented as beautifully restored classics.  I have pictures of my 1958 Fleetwood 60 Special that it appears to be musuem ready, when in fact it is a well preserved original with several signs of it's age. A little caution in purchasing will assure a car that you will be pleased with from day one. I have owned a 1992 Cadillac Brougham d'Elegance (5.7), 1990 Cadillac Allante, 1976 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible, and still own a 1971 Cadillac Sedan Deville, 1963 Cadilac Series 62 Convertible, and a 1958 Cadillace Fleetwood 60 Special. Every car has brought me great pleasure and some (especilally the convertibles) a little agony. Each model year has its strengths and weaknesses, you just have to decide what is most important to you.

[BillB]

The only thing I can add to all the excellent advice given already is to keep in mind that you are getting into a hobby, not buying an investment.  It will cost you more money than you will probably ever recoup.  But, the costs are far less than a lot of other hobbies you might easily have selected.  For example, a few months of golf, with the clubs, accessories, fees, tournaments, etc., will quickly pass what your car costs.  The pleasure of being around great people and having a great time showing whatever car you have will be the reward.  If you keep that idea, you will have a great time.  Also, you seem to be interested in having a driver, rather than a high end show car.  I assure you that Cadillacs fill that better than most.  Don't be surprised to get invited to drive people in parades, have it shown as store openings and other events, even if it isn't a showroom perfect car.  Keep it nice, spend the dollars needed to to keep it safe, running well, looking nice, and enjoy!