Front Wheel Drive Eldo Starter Problems, See Picture. Also, Underhood Decals?

[John Morris #23947]

I have a 70 Eldo that just had the tranny recased right before I bought it. But, the starter grinds as if the flex plate is bad. I put the car up to pull the starter and inspect the teeth on flex plate. I was told on the forum that you do not shim front wheel drive starters, but found that someone put flat washers between starter and tranny case. It looks like they tack welded the washers to the starter! See attached picture. Was this a mistake, and could this allow the starter to rock back and forth when activated? It started pouring cats and dogs so I didn't pull the starter yet. I'm hoping I find the flex plate is not bad after I pull the starter, not likely. I bought a new flex plate, engine gasket set, timing set, carb kit, etc. as if I must pull the engine I should gasket and detail it along with brackets-aircleaner etc. Also, if I do that, is there anyone out there that sells every single underhood decal needed? This car is so cherry it should have an engine compartment to match.

[John Morris #23947]

Ok folks, I pulled the starter and here's what I found. It's a new starter and solenoid, but the starter drive gear is munched badly. But the flex plate shows about the 5% on the edge of the teeth damaged, not too bad. Whenever I tried starting the car the starter seemed "sluggish" and slow to engage, even with fully charged battery. I suspect the washers installed between starter and tranny caused the starter to rock back and forth as there was a gap as seen in the 1st post above. Should I replace the starter and solenoid with new units without those dumb washers? I would hate to have to pull the engine if I don't have to.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day John,

I am not sure why the previous "mechanic" would install the Starter Motor as shown in the pictures, as it would just have to rock and roll when the torque was applied.

I would be "cleaning up" the teeth for a start, and checking the operation of the Starter on the bench to see if it is operating correctly.

The Bendix shouldn't be starting to rotate until it has been fully extended by the Solenoid, and with these "spacers", there is a very good chance that it the Bendix is turning before the teeth are engaged on the Ring Gear Teeth.

The only "Shimming" of Starter Motors I have ever heard of is with the "Block-mounted" GM Starters where GM supplies Shims to move the Starter Body sideways in relation to the Ring Gear, and not end on.

Bruce.

[homeonprunehill]

Ok folks, I pulled the starter and here's what I found. It's a new starter and solenoid, but the starter drive gear is munched badly. But the flex plate shows about the 5% on the edge of the teeth damaged, not too bad. Whenever I tried starting the car the starter seemed "sluggish" and slow to engage, even with fully charged battery. I suspect the washers installed between starter and tranny caused the starter to rock back and forth as there was a gap as seen in the 1st post above. Should I replace the starter and solenoid with new units without those dumb washers? I would hate to have to pull the engine if I don't have to.
[/quote
03-02-08
John,  Take your starter to an Auto Parts Store and compare the "bendex-gear" to the new starter. John, the V-8 engine will always stop in one of two locations. So, there should be damage (wear) to the "ring-gear"in two locations.  From the looks of the Bendex-Gear on the starter that you removed from your car, it does not match-up to the "Ring-gear" properly. Could be some "Shade-Tree" machanic (please read as "mad-man") was working with what he had and installed the wrong part-number starter on the car. To aqnswer your other question, the short answer is "YES" you can find decal for your car. Try "Himmings Motor News for ads.
Good Luck,JIM

[John Morris #23947]

I marked and spun the flex plate 360 degrees. All the teeth look like the photo above, very little wear on the very edge but none worn any more than shown above. The only thing I can think of is the 2 washers "somebody" installed between starter and tranny case allowed the starter to rock side to side. Anybody know why those washers were installed?

[TJ Hopland]

Just some thoughts based on no hard experience:

Maybe its the wrong starter?

How about some research to see what other starters may be close?

I can think of several changes that could have been slightly different.

-67 429 (transmission was close to the same but may have not been exact)
-68/69
-70 it appears they were thinking 'big' for the 500 so perhaps they had some HD starter?
-71/76 compression dropped so maybe the cheapened the starter?
-77/78 motor was smaller and lighter so maybe the starter was also?
-79 was olds gas or diesel on a new transmission
-80/81 was the 368
-82-85 had the 4100 or olds diesel with some transmission changes?

And dont forget the Toronado with olds motors the whole time but the same transmission so perhaps that would account for a 1/8" difference in length due to flexplate location?

[greg surfas 15634]

John,
If I were to find myself with a vehicle that appeared to be cobbed together with "spacers" I would very carefully research the correctness of all the parts.
It does seem odd, that the washers were installed where they were.  If someone actually pulled the transmission and redid the external seals, I would have to believe they were technically savvy enough to know how to install the starter. UNLESS, the starer, transmission, flexplate or something else was not either installed correctly or was the wrong part.  I have an Eldo flexplate at home and if there is any possibility of it being installed backwards and that results in an 1/8 inch offset I will get back to you with that information. 
Aren't you glad you didn't pull the engine or trans (your choice if you recall) before finding the actual problem
Greg

[John Morris #23947]

Man, I tell ya I've about had it with this thing. I just installed a new high quality starter and solenoid. The flex plate looks fine, just a little wear on the very edges of the teeth, none worn more than others. I just tried to start it. Just horrible. It's the loudest damned thing I ever heard, deafening from outside the car, very loud even inside while cranking. About every 4th or 5th revolution it will grind and suddenly lock up the motor, practically busting the engine mounts. What the heck could be wrong with this thing? There's no adjustment, new starter, solenoid, & battery, flex plate looks fine. I'm about ready to part it out for the 500 etc.

[greg surfas 15634]

John,
As promised, I took a look at the flexplate that I have and it is conceivable that IF, somehow the flexplate was installed "backwards" meaning the wrong side was towards the crankshaft, it would put the ring gear about 1/8 inch further back , away from the starter drive gear. I can't tell from your picture of the flexplate if it is installed correctly. 
I might suggest checking the fit between the engine block and the transmission case to be sure there is an even fit all around, no gaps in the match-up.
It really sounds like there is a miss match of parts somewhere, and misalignment is a good possibility.
Buy some rags and clean yourself up.
Greg

[John Morris #23947]

Thank you Greg, Tassie, and Jim for assisting. Here's pictures of the NEW flex plate, not installed yet. There is a "bulge" in the center where it bolts to the crankshaft. Using a caliper, it seems that if installed with bulge towards the rear axle, the ring gear would be about 9/16 closer to the starter than if the bulge was towards the engine. Nowhere on the part does it say "mount towards engine" like I have seen on Chevy flex plates. This could be the problem? Does anybody know if the flex plate should be installed "bulge" towards engine or rear of car? 

[TJ Hopland]

I could be mixing up different engines I have had apart over the years but do/did any of the cadillac plates have the area around the crank flat and the bump where the torque converter bolts are?  I could be thinking of chevs.  I dont remember any question which way the 500 plate fit when I did mine last fall.

[greg surfas 15634]

John,
The extra holes in the flexplate make me wonder if this is the correct part. Aside from the crank bolt holes in the center, the only holes ion the flexplate I have, out of an eldorado are the three for the torque converter.  Again, tonight I will look at the flexplate and let you know.  The "stains" from where the converter "feet" set on the flexplate are still evident and I will get back to you with that info.
I still might be a little doubious about the engine/trans -bellhousing fit-up.
Greg

[TJ Hopland]

His looks like the current 'good' stock replacement plate.  The current ones are made with both the standard GM torque converter bolt patterns.  They make them that way for swap people and the last few years that used the smaller converter.

[homeonprunehill]

Thank you Greg, Tassie, and Jim for assisting. Here's pictures of the NEW flex plate, not installed yet. There is a "bulge" in the center where it bolts to the crankshaft. Using a caliper, it seems that if installed with bulge towards the rear axle, the ring gear would be about 9/16 closer to the starter than if the bulge was towards the engine. Nowhere on the part does it say "mount towards engine" like I have seen on Chevy flex plates. This could be the problem? Does anybody know if the flex plate should be installed "bulge" towards engine or rear of car? 
[/quote

03-04-08
JOHN, Are the two flex-plates pictured in your posr out of your car?  If you can remenber which-way you took it out, and put it in oppoist of the way you took it out. I feel it'll be ok . Or,if you can find an auto-parts store, maybe,just maybe, they can tell you which is the correcr way.
Good Luck,JIM

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The Workshop Manual diagram shows the detent in the centre to go towards the rear, and the lip which the Ring Gear attaches to, to the front.

Bruce.

[Glen]

Years ago I bought a ’70 Eldo for $300.  It was priced about right.  I could not park it anywhere near the entrance to stores or any other populated places because it was so noisy when starting it.  It would destroy the bendix every few weeks.  I found there was missing teeth on the flywheel and figured that was the problem.  I changed the flywheel.  Not only did it not help, the engine broke teeth out of the new fly wheel.  Meanwhile I kept a stock of starters in the trunk.  Good ones on one side and bad ones on the other.  I repaired the bad starters all at once.  I also had problems that pointed to a bad timing chain.  After I changed the timing chain it never ate another starter and it was as quiet as a Cadillac should be when starting. 

So my recommendation would be to check the timing chain and install a new starter. 

Glen

[TJ Hopland]

Years ago I bought a ’70 Eldo for $300.  It was priced about right.  I could not park it anywhere near the entrance to stores or any other populated places because it was so noisy when starting it.  It would destroy the bendix every few weeks.  I found there was missing teeth on the flywheel and figured that was the problem.  I changed the flywheel.  Not only did it not help, the engine broke teeth out of the new fly wheel.  Meanwhile I kept a stock of starters in the trunk.  Good ones on one side and bad ones on the other.  I repaired the bad starters all at once.  I also had problems that pointed to a bad timing chain.  After I changed the timing chain it never ate another starter and it was as quiet as a Cadillac should be when starting. 

So my recommendation would be to check the timing chain and install a new starter. 

Glen

So the theory being that during cranking the timing was bouncing around so much that it was kicking back?  But once it started the slack would stay in one place and more or less run alirignt?

I think we covered replacing the timing chain in one of his earlier posts for this car and he planned on doing it if/when he pulls the motor to deal with these other issues.

[John Morris #23947]

Well fellas, thanks for all the techno advice. It looks like I'm back to square 1, pulling the engine and doing the job right, regasket, new timing chain, rear main, engine paint, detail brackets etc. The rest of the car looks amazing, might as well. The other day, with the new starter, it did crank over [LOUD] for a minute and should have started, but looking at the carb the choke butterfly was gas saturated and it smelled flooded. I barely touched the gas pedal, but flooded. Could confirm the timing chain issue. When I bought the car, the guy fired it right up in seconds, it idles fantastic, I drove it 200 miles from Seattle to Portland, running like a new car. Hasn't started since, flooding and grinding starter. Next step, pull engine!! 

[Glen]

Years ago I bought a ’70 Eldo for $300.  It was priced about right.  I could not park it anywhere near the entrance to stores or any other populated places because it was so noisy when starting it.  It would destroy the bendix every few weeks.  I found there was missing teeth on the flywheel and figured that was the problem.  I changed the flywheel.  Not only did it not help, the engine broke teeth out of the new fly wheel.  Meanwhile I kept a stock of starters in the trunk.  Good ones on one side and bad ones on the other.  I repaired the bad starters all at once.  I also had problems that pointed to a bad timing chain.  After I changed the timing chain it never ate another starter and it was as quiet as a Cadillac should be when starting. 

So my recommendation would be to check the timing chain and install a new starter. 

Glen

So the theory being that during cranking the timing was bouncing around so much that it was kicking back?  But once it started the slack would stay in one place and more or less run alirignt?

I think we covered replacing the timing chain in one of his earlier posts for this car and he planned on doing it if/when he pulls the motor to deal with these other issues.

That is the theory my father and I came up with.  Your mileage may vary. 

Glen

[John Morris #23947]

The timing issue would explain hard cranking and kicking back, but the horrible shrieking while cranking is still a mystery to me. Glen, did your 70 scream like that before replacing the timing chain? I've had quite a few small block chevys that acted up while monkeying with the timing but they never shrieked like that. I would hate to go through the entire pull engine/gasket/timing/paint/replace engine job just to find the problem was not fixed!!!