Installing Clutch... 346 Flathead

[pauldridge]

We were all set today to install my newly rebuilt 346 Flathead engine back in the car.  Got the bellhousing on, installed the flywheel and clutch plate, but then couldn't figure out any way to get the clutch release arm and throwout bearing back in position.  We tried installing the release arm before the clutch, but there is not even close to being enough room to get the pressure plate to clear the installed throwout bearing. 

But if we install the clutch first, then the release arm and throwout bearing just won't slide in.

We even tried removing the bellhousing bolts and pulling the housing forward to give a little more clearance, but no luck.

The shop manual gives no guidance whatsoever on this, in fact seems to regard it as a trivial item.

The only solution we can see is either:
1) remove the release arm pivot ball from the bell housing to give enough clearance for the arm  (we tried this with tools we had, but that threaded ball has apparently not been nudged since 1940)

or 2) install just the release arm, then try to install the throwout bearing on the arm after it is in place... We CAN get the release arm in, AND the throwout bearing in place, but installing those heavy spring clips to hold the bearing in the release arm just seems impossible after it is in position

Are we missing something?  Has anyone else done this and remember the steps they took?

Down to the last step, and dead in the water

Phil - Texas

[Steve Passmore]

I've just removed the clutch on my 38 Phil and had to release the bell-housing to get it to come out because someone has replaced the drive plate and pressure cover with the wrong type. I found out when replacing my 37 that the earlier bell housings require a drive plate thinner than the later ones with virtually no center boss facing the flywheel. Did you use the earlier bell-housing on a later engine later clutch perhaps?
You have to have the fork in place before the clutch cover and then the bearing last as I recall.

[pauldridge]

I've just removed the clutch on my 38 Phil and had to release the bell-housing to get it to come out because someone has replaced the drive plate and pressure cover with the wrong type. I found out when replacing my 37 that the earlier bell housings require a drive plate thinner than the later ones with virtually no center boss facing the flywheel. Did you use the earlier bell-housing on a later engine later clutch perhaps?
You have to have the fork in place before the clutch cover and then the bearing last as I recall.

Steve..
This is a later ('47) engine, but I'm using the original (presumably) Bell housing and clutch components from my '40.  I was all prepared to have the clutch cover and disk rebuilt, but amazingly they both look like new.  You can still read printing on the face of the clutch disk, so I just replaced the T/O and pilot bearings. 

It does seem that I will have to figure out how to get those two throwout bearing lock springs into the clutch release arm after the arm is in position.  It is pretty easy to get the bearing itself in place that way, but getting those springs looks darn near impossible.  Of course, with the bell housing on, no way to hang the engine on a rotating stand, so it's more difficult working upside down underneath a 600 lb engine dangling from a hoist!

[harry s]

Phil, I remember having the same problem some time ago. As memory serves I had to remove the bellhousing ball to get the arm in. I just did my '37 and had no problem with that one. It always happens when you just about ready finish up. Good Luck,   Harry

[Jim Stamper]

     I seem to remember the pivot ball being the key on my 37-60 coupe.  I spent some time head scratching too. I also can't remember which direction the ball went, in or out. Don't worry, you will get it done.

     I turned a big wood dowel down to the correct sizes for the clutch alignment shaft. It worked fine.

     That engine is a lot heavier than 600#, probably more like 8-900 #. I doubt that makes you feel any better,

                       Jim Stamper CLC#13470

[Steve Passmore]

That answers it then. On the earlier engines there was a different construction to the end of the crank shaft, the crank finished shorter and was closer to the block face, later engines protruded outwards, I cannot use a crank from my 37 in my 38 unless I use the corresponding flywheel and clutch components. that's why Jim and I had problems, we both have later engines and flywheels with earlier bell-housings, the position farther back of the flywheel prevents everything clearing the flywheel without releasing the bell-housing as you have found.
I dint think you can remove the pivot arm to cure this as I recall when unscrewing it moves forward and grounds on the pressure cover before completely releasing, as least the case with my car.
Oh the fun of fitting later engine.

[rismt]

I recently went thru the same issue with my 1939 engine and manual trans which I was putting back together. In order for the clearance I backed out the pivot ball large headed bolt/screw on the transmission side of the housing. I will try and attach a photo of it to this posting, however, in the past I have had technical issues when trying to attach photos.

Happy to send photos to you via email if that can help you. Just shoot over your email address.

Good Luck,
Bob Schwartz
Spokane, WA
CLC 25646

[rismt]

Paul ... looks like uploading the pictures did not work. If you would like them please send me your email address and I will send them over to you.

Bob

[pauldridge]

Added 1-8-13:
Yes, the pivot ball definitely has to be removed from the bell housing in order for the clutch release lever and throwout bearing to be installed.  The back side of the ball has a flanged, slotted interface for removal.  Because of the flange or head, the ball only comes out one way.. toward the rear of the car.  A screwdriver probably won't be sufficient to back this baby out unless it has been removed recently.  I bought a set of "draglink sockets" from Sears, like huge flat-bladed screwdrivers on the end of a 1/2" socket, in various widths.  Using the appropriate width and an impact gun, the socket came right out.

A few other things I learned while reinstalling the engine:

1.  Engine mounts... bolt in the actual rubber mount just loosely to the frame so it can be moved slightly to line up the metal bracket from the engine.  When sitting the engine back in place, it is best to get the mount bracket bolt closest to the engine started first (the one that is least accessible) then it will be easier to line up the outer bolt hole.  You'll have no problem getting to the lower rubber mount locating bolts to tighten them AFTER you've gotten the engine bolted to the mount.

2) The starter really needs to be off the engine when reinstalling in its bay (unless you remove the exhaust pipe.

3) The aft rubber transmission mount must not be installed on the transmission until it has been hoisted in place and bolted to the bell housing.  Otherwise, it will restrict the aft movement of the tranny to allow the primary transmission shaft to clear the bell housing

4) forward transmission "seal":  It appears that there is no actual seal in the front end of the transmission.  Instead a reverse "scroll" is machined into the input shaft just where it exits the front of the tranny.  This serves as a slinger to send any oil back to the transmission through that separate sleeve that locates the throwout bearing.  You will note a slot machined in the sleeve.. this is where the oil returns to the transmission, via a small hole in the front of the tranny.  It seems to make sense to apply a thin bead of RTV silicone around the recess machined into the bell housing to prevent any leakage of fluid when re-assembling.

Hope this helps.

sounds like the pivot ball has to come out.  And I see no reason why it would have to come out toward the front of the engine.  I believe that threaded shaft is large enough to accommodate the ball passing through on the end.

Today I received the beefy "drag link sockets" I ordered from Sears.  Basically big flat-bladed screwdriver-like sockets on 1/2" drive, in various widths.  I am going to go ahead and install the engine in the car, I think it will be easier wrangling with this thing with the engine secure in its front mounts and where I can get under it on the lift without worrying about a boat anchor falling on my head.

Interesting comment about the crank flange protruding further out?  That doesn't seem to apply here, as the flywheel just clears the bell housing by 1/4", and I do remember that the only way I was able to get the clutch off the old engine was after the spring clips on the T/O bearing finally came loose, and I was able to remove the bearing, allowing enough clearance to get the release arm off.

Wish me luck!

[Steve Passmore]

There by hangs the little differences between the years on these engines Phil, no wonder we are all on cross purposes. the pivot ball on my 37 and 38 engines is actually part of the fork and cannot be removed separately, its held by a wide bolt in the bell housing rather that the slot screw that you have.    when undone the whole fork and ball has to move forward for the thread to clear the hole before it comes out. Another difference is my earlier engines have no spring clips holding the release bearing to the fork. 
It was obviously altered by 40 to make removing the fork an option.

[pauldridge]

here by hangs the little differences between the years on these engines Phil, no wonder we are all on cross purposes. the pivot ball on my 37 and 38 engines is actually part of the fork and cannot be removed separately, its held by a wide bolt in the bell housing rather that the slot screw that you have.    when undone the whole fork and ball has to move forward for the thread to clear the hole before it comes out. Another difference is my earlier engines have no spring clips holding the release bearing to the fork. 
It was obviously altered by 40 to make removing the fork an option.

At least it looks like Cadillac was moving forward as the years progressed!  Compared to my 1939 Ford coupe, this car is a space ship!