Mayday! Mayday! '58 Engine Stuck!

[Morgan Murphy]

Oh Lord.

I believe the engine on my '58 may be seized. The car last ran (poorly) in 2006. I have been slowly disassembling the engine and rebuilding parts one by one. Today, I was attempting to put in new timing chain/sprockets and wanted to line up the gears to top dead center. So I tried to turn the harmonic balancer bolt with a breaker bar. No movement.  I put the car in neutral and removed all the spark plugs. No movement.  I put a large wrench right onto the camshaft cog itself and turned with all my might (insert swear words).  No movement.

Some of my spark plug tips looked pretty corroded (green, one or two actually rusty).  I'm worried the engine has seized. I've filled each cylinder with PB Blaster to soak overnight, in hopes of some movement tomorrow.  Anyone else think of something I'm missing? I'm a novice and may have overlooked something elementary.  At least I'm hoping that's the case.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  I was hoping to drive this baby to Grand National!

[Carl Schreiber]

Mr. Murphy -

Is this a Brougham?  That would make me even sicker...

My 1957 Biarritz came with a standard-line 1958 engine installed.  It was advertised as having been 'completely rebuilt'.  In actuality, and after defending the seller's description, I found the EXACT same problem - piston rings were actually 'rust-welded' to the cylinder walls.  By turning the crankshaft and camshaft, you'll only bend pushrods and wipe out the bearings for the cam and crank.  Mine also had about 1/2 gallon of water in the oil pan, and the oil that was in there was disposal grade at best.  Somebody went through a LOT of trouble sandblasting and painting what was (now) obviously a salvage-yard engine, bolting it up to a 57 transmission with a 57 water pump and hanging all the accessories on it.  Yeah, I was ripped off hard...

After seeing first-hand what rust inside a engine can do, I can safely tell you you'll need new pistons, rings, valves, springs, pushrods, lifters, cam, bearings for crank and cam.  Crankshaft and connecting rods will need to be gone through too.  And that's assuming the block is sound enough to rebuild.  If it's a Eldorado 'Q-code' block, I'd recommend re-sleeving it and starting over so the numbers stay with the car.  Know how hard it is to find a rebuildable 'Q-code' engine?  Even if you do find one, you STILL have to hope the heads aren't cracked (typical of 57, not certain if that was addressed on 58's...).

My problem is I didn't admit the worst until the car went to the restoration shop and I was confronted with the incontrivertible evidence.  You can't imagine how angry, embarrassed, and humiliated I was when I got the call - and the pictures of the inside of the engine.

Bottom line - I've now got (another) $10,000 in a intake, 'Q-code' long-block, and 'CE-code' transmission - and that's without shipping.  The %$&@! who sold me the car is probably STILL laughing.  I hope he burns in hell, preferably with the guy who sold you yours...

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

You're doing the right things -- keep soaking the engine (via the spark plug holes)
with a good penetrant (PB Blaster is good, I personally like Marvel Mystery Oil).

However, if there is rust in the engine this "soaking process" could take several weeks.
Every 3-4 days, add more oil and after a week or two weeks attempt to turn the
engine over with a breaker bar.  Above all - TAKE YOUR TIME!!  No shortcuts here.
There is always another Grand National.  It will break loose eventually.  It hasen't been
sitting that long.

If, after all this, you can't break it loose you may need some more serious repair -- but
take you time and try this first.

Good luck!

Mike

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Morgan, sounds like bad news. If you have rust on the plug tips. it could be water in the cylinders. Drain the oil & see if water comes out first. Also, you can borrow a bore inspecting scope to look in the cylinders. Also, as I said before, the ONLY place to pry on a stuck motor is the flywheel. The other places provide NO mechanical advantage. Good Luck, Bob

[JKF]

Do not mistrust, engine will turn over sooner or later.
I have had the same trouble with my QK-coded engine stuck for decades. It is easy if you just remove the heads first. Clean up the cylinder walls and soak with penetrating liquid of your choice, actually diesel works OK given time.
Apply force on the flywheel - nowhere else - preferably by the use of a homemade tool consisting of a starter sprocket/gear connected to a ratchet spanner. Make sure the bronze bushing for the starter is fresh first, then apply light force back and forth untill it moves freely. It will if rust is the only problem.

We only replaced the rings (and heads, 1957...) on my engine and could even re-use the old pistons after cleaning. Standard bore on a 50+ year old engine is pretty neat!

Good luck Morgan, soon you will enjoy the sound of your 365"!

J Kjerrulf

[Morgan Murphy]

Thank you for the sage advice. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the PB Blaster will do the trick.

The oil pan is off the car--I took it off four months ago to get the oil pump rebuilt, straighten dents, and clean the sludge. There was no water in the oil.  I think the culprit may have been the steam cleaning I subjected the engine to about a year ago. The intake manifold was off the car, and I can only think that moisture somehow got past the tape and cloths I used to seal those ports.  Ugh.

Question: if I do manage to get the engine to turn by hand, what then? Do I need to open the heads to check rings and so forth? Or would you just go for it and hope the compression is still good?  It has only sat idle for 18 months--I'm shocked about it being frozen but hopeful that perhaps the damage isn't too bad.

Question 2: turning flywheel teeth with a screwdriver is pretty tough.  I'd like to make or buy a tool that will help me turn the flywheel (I'm assuming you turn it from the opening where the starter was).  Any suggestions.

Here's a picture of the engine "from the bottom up" for the curious.

[76eldo]

There is a tool called a "flywheel turner".  It's a long bar with two tabs sticking out.  The idea is to engage it in between 2 teeth on the flywheel.  Probably about 100 degrees apart.  This gives proper grip and leverage.  Be careful.

Here is one link for a tool:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.daymotorsports.com/images/product/tn/Flywheel-Turning-Tool.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.daymotorsports.com/shop/B360&h=30&w=90&sz=2&hl=en&start=38&um=1&tbnid=6GyzxkaKzHTQVM:&tbnh=26&tbnw=78&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dflywheel%2Bturning%2Btool%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

I just Google search for stuff I need to find or at least have a look at.

Good Luck,

Brian

[Morgan Murphy]

Update: it's been two days of PB Blaster and still can't get a wiggle out of the engine. But the blaster is soaking through and dripping on my garage floor, so I consider that some progress. I also bought a "Flywheel Turner," which turns out to difficult to use, unfortunately, because the flywheel cover doesn't grant access like a modern car.  So I've been limited to a large Craftsman screwdriver.

My mechanic suggests putting the harmonic balancer back on the car and then using the bolt to turn the crankshaft. He feels that just turning the bolt (sans balancer) isn't enough.

I may fill the cylinders with Marvel Mystery Oil tonight and see if that works any mojo on the old bird.  On the good side, having the oil pan off for a few extra days allowed me time to bang some dents out and shine it up. Here's the before and after.

[David King (kz78hy)]

Hi Morgan

I'm in the same boat right now.  I hope 702 will let the engine free up.  My car, 615 has had the engine frozen for 25 years.  The good news is the heads were off most of the time.  The time came for me to finely do something so I pulled the engine and trans about 3 weeks ago.

Last winter I tried to free up the engine.  I spent about 40 hours off and on attempting to free it up.  All the cylinders were cleaned up with scotch brite pads, soaked, soaked again with penetrating oil for many weeks.  I even made a tool to try and break the pistons loose.  I took a ¼” steel plate and drilled 5 holes that matched up to the head bolt pattern in the block.  Then drilled and tapped a hole in the center of the pattern for a 5/16 bolt.  I put  a block of wood on top of  the piston, inside the cylinder and placed the plate over top.  Secured the 5 bolts and then turned the jack screw down trying to put enough pressure on the piston to free it up.  I did this process on all eight cylinders.  It never did free up.

Getting the engine apart without the ability to turn the crank was not much fun.  You also have to turn the crank to separate the transmission from the engine.  As it turns out, pistons 7&8 were the ones where the rings were firmly rusted to the cylinder walls.  Those had to be beat out with an old axle and a 1 pound hammer.  The block did not look that bad; lots of sludge though in the pan.  Almost 2 inches high and it had grown up around the oil pump.

I took the engine to the rebuilder last Friday.  Sitting there on the shop floor were 3 engines that had been dropped off which had been stored with the heads on.  Now I know it was best the heads on mine were off.  Those engine blocks were shot.  Any cylinder that had open valves was subject to moisture intrusion and those looked terrible.

Maybe you will be able to free it up, but I would very nervous to drive any distance on it in a sub optimum condition.  Brougham blocks are not that easy to find.  If you did have an issue while at speed, bad things would happen for sure.

Just my to cents on the subject.  We should stay in touch since we are doing the same work, at the same time, on identical cars.

Best wishes,

David

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Morgan, the steam cleaning did it. I'm surprised your mechanic suggested the crank bolt. It's a bad idea. What if you break it off??? Also, once the motor starts to move, you will need to rotate it back & forth till  you go all the way around. . The bolt will loosen when you go one way, so it won't turn the motor. So........ your big screw driver is still your best bet. Bob

[J Kjerrulf]

A flywheel turner made from a starter sprocket is the way to go.
Make your own tool or let a shop produce it for you, you will get infinite torque if you apply the force on your flywheel. The movements back and forth should be microscopic in the beginning for a good result. I guess I made several 1000 cycles - look at my engine below... If you choose to turn on the harmonic balanser bolt use a torque wrench and respect the limits, otherwise you will end up with more problems.
Wish I could send a pic of the tool I successfully used but I only borrowed it from a Cadillac-shop, it wasn't mine. The owner made it himself since they were not availiable anywhere, he has huge experience in this field. If you want me to I'll make you a drawing./JKF

[Morgan Murphy]

Jan:

I think I'd like to make that flywheel turner. Could you post a sketch? I think that would be a very helpful tool.

Today I filled each cylinder with Marvel Mystery Oil. My brother-in-law is coming over Saturday to help me, so perhaps we'll have a "breakthrough" without breaking anything else.

Morgan

PS--here are some additional images of the timing chain & no. 702

[Morgan Murphy]

Thanks again to everyone for your tips and emails of support.

Here's an update: I dumped prodigious amounts of Marvel Mystery Oil down the gullet of Brougham 702 yesterday.  Not surprisingly, most of it is now on my garage floor. Today, I took the flywheel turner back to NAPA, and they gave me $37.47 back, which I then spent on a compression tester, a third bottle of PB Blaster, and some Purple Power to clean up said garage floor.

I also received my power brake booster back from Power Brake Supply in Florida. I hope it functions as good as it looks.

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

Morgan:

You're trying to rush this and it can't be rushed.  The oil has to have a few
weeks to do it's job.  Put a pan under the engine, keep putting a small amount of
oil in each cylinder every few days and, above all, be patient.  It will work.

Mike

[J Kjerrulf]

Maybe you have succeded allready but here is a quick scetch of the tool I used. Memory plays tricks on us sometimes, it slipped my mind you will need to use the side of your starter (pic1) where the bushing is located. You also need to attach this on its regular place on the enginge before cranking.
Weld a 1/2" socket or larger to your (hopefully) spare starter gear (pic2).

When cranking, use your own hands for better feeling, no machines.

Rings were broken in my engine, if you let the fluids soak in for a longer time you may save some parts in the long run.
Booster looks great, Good luck/JKF

[Morgan Murphy]

Jan:

Your sketch is fantastic!  That's a real help to me.  Thank you.  I am still trying to free the old girl.  No movement yet.  The big screwdriver didn't move a fraction of an inch last night.

Morgan

[David King (kz78hy)]

Hi Morgan

I have another idea.  Since I'm a rigger at heart, I came up with a simple tool.
You already have access to the timing gear and chain,  reinstall the bolts in the timing gear.  How about using the timing gear to pry against?  Those parts should be replaced anyway since they are exposed and probably at a mileage where normal maintainance would reccomend replacing.

Below is a marked up photo of the idea.  Work the arm back and forth until you break it free.

David


I dropped off my transmission yesterday for inspection and new seals.

[Glen]

The pistons are what’s stuck and they prevent the crankshaft from turning.  By applying torque to the cam shaft sprocket the force is transferred to the crankshaft through the timing chain.  The force applied to the cam shaft sprocket is cut in half by the ratio between the sprockets.  I would also worry a little bit about damage to the crank and cam shafts too. 

I have freed up a couple of engines by removing the heads and putting a small block of wood on top of the stuck piston(s) (the one with the rusty water or rust stains in the cylinder).  Be sure the wood covers the piston to the walls of the cylinder.  I used a 2x4 with the corners cut to fit into the cylinder.  Then tap on the wood.  Great care must be taken to be sure no pressure is applied to the center of the piston top.  Hitting it too hard could break the top of the piston or split the wood which then punchers the piston.  Then move to a piston that is trying to come up. Alternate between pistons.  The rocking action will eventually free it up.   

As mentioned before keep the rings oiled with WD40, Pblaster, Marvel Mystery oil etc. 

Great patience is required.  After a while it will be free. 

Once it is free clean the cylinder walls well to remove rust, grit whatever to make them smooth before the piston rings run over that section again. 

After all that rough treatment it would be a good idea to check the piston rings to be sure they are not broken. 

Glen

[JKF]

Still stuck? Maybe it is time to remove the heads..
Keep us updated of any progress!
/JKF

[Vinny]

I had a 66 429 that was sitting in a garage for a few years without a water pump and crossover outlet.  When I tried to turn the engine, it was stuck too.  I took off the heads and found out the culprits were a stuck #1 piston and # 2 piston.  In my opinion, the best way to unstick a pistion is to soak it with the heads off.  I soaked it with everything, WD-40, Marvel Mystery oil, PB Blaster and tranny fluid.  I let is stay with out touching it for 1 week.  Since I had the heads off, I tapped the piston a little each couple of hours with a piece a wood.  After a day or so, it freed up.  I cleaned the cylinder walls checked ring movement and it was good to go.  The engine was able to turn freely after that with a breaker bar.  When I put the engine together( now that it is apart, this is the best time to change the cam, lifter, timing chain, etc..), I changed the oil and freeze plugs and started her up.  After putting all that stuff in the motor, it was an adventure to see what came out of the tail pipe!  I let it run for an hour, changed the oil and filter, removed the plugs and took a compression test.  It read 130-135 on all cylinders.  I put everything back together again, changed the pluggs and now she runs like a song.  Hope this helps.