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Early (trunk) A/C in Coupes

Started by Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397, July 26, 2008, 10:08:23 AM

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Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

There is a '53 Buick Roadmaster Riviera Coupe on ebay with factory air conditioning and it has the same ducting/venting arrangement as a sedan of that era, i.e. the plastic tubes do not discharge the cool air directly into the passenger compartment, but go into the headliner and there are two vents on each side of the car, one above the front seat and one above the rear. My understanding was that all Cadillac coupes with the trunk-mounted air conditioning and the few that I've seen had the open-ended tubes and no ducts and vents. However, it doesn't seem reasonable that Buick would have this much better, and more costly system in their C-body coupes than Cadillac had in theirs.  Was the ducted/vented arrangement available as an option on Cadillac coupes?

Otto Skorzeny

The ducted vents were not available on Cadillac coupes. Only 4 doors had this setup.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

Thanks for confirming what I thought.  Buick salesman:  "So, you're considering an air conditioned Coupe de Ville, but thought you'd take a look at the new Buicks, too?  Well, let me show you something in our Roadmaster that I think will surprise you".

Otto Skorzeny

You could probably adapt a Buick setup the Coupe de Ville if weren't worried about points judging. I bet it would be a simple task.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

I'm just surprised that the difference existed at all and I wouldn't be as much if Cadillac had the better setup instead of Buick. If Buick caught Cadillac by surprise (and that might have happened in those days when the divisons' engineering departments were fairly autonomous), you'd think that Cadillac would have adopted it for '54-'56. Since Cadillac had the ducted AC in the sedans, what kept them from putting it in the coupes? And here's another conundrum: Pontiac had a completely in-dash/underhood air conditioning system for 1954 (attached to an ancient flathead straight eight engine and running off a 6 volt electrical system, no less), but it took Cadillac until 1957 to get that big box with its handy "summer/winter" switch out of the trunk.

Otto Skorzeny

I know, it's funny. Buick also put fan shrouds on its cars but Cadillac didn't put one in until 57 or 58.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Doug Houston

I once had to remove the radio from a '55 Oldsmobile 98 with Factory air. The evaporator was under the hood, and under the dash (and the radio) were controls, linkages, and ducting. I finally had to loosen the glove compartment, pucker it down, pull it out, then remove the radio through the glove box opening.

That  particular car had been equipped with every accessory that Oldsmobile offered that year. In the engine compartment, the power steering pump, Autronic eye box. air con evaporator, compresor, heater, power brake booster surrounded the engine. Then, the air cleaner covered the remaining view of any of the engine. Wizzbanger of a car, but I,m glad I never had to do any service work on it!  Masochist that I am though, I would sort of like to have that car today.

Those cars still had DC generators, and I wonder now, how they kept up with the electrical loads. Even a 12 Voilt generator, developing 45 amps would have been groaning under the load.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

#7
That '55 Oldsmobile engine compartment sounds as stuffed as the ones on today's cars where it is usually impossible to even see the engine block. Heavily-optioned, air conditioned, pre-alternator cars really did have their charging systems taxed. I remember the generator light slightly glowing at idle on my parents'  '60 98 when the AC was on, particularly at night when the headlights added to the load and the darkness made it more noticeable. If we got stuck in traffic for very long, Dad would put it in neutral and raise the engine speed until the light went off.  When the '60 was replaced by a '64, Dad thought the alternator was the greatest thing since Hydra-Matic Drive.

Doug Houston

RUSTY: Your Pop was right. Because of design limitations, DC generators were not able to charge the battery at idle,  and there was no way to get away from that limitation until alternator charging systems were introduced for civilian vehicles in 1960 by Chrysler.

Police cars had rectified AC systems in the late forties, made by Leece-Neville, with a big dry rectifier stack under the hood. They were a large machine, and far too expensive for the likes of us. I suppose that any of us might have been able to buy one and install it on our cars in those years, but I shudder to think what the price would have been.

The thing that broke the whole idea loose was the availability of high current silicon diode rectifiers that could be pressed into the alternator end bell. That, coupled to the use of 12 volt systems made a compact AC generator possible. The diodes were supplied by the Sarkes Tarzian Co., of Bloomington, Indiana. As quickly as possible, Delco and Motorola appeared with alternator charging systems as quickly as possible. Far higher charging currents were possible with the new alternators than ever possible with the DC generators. Delco had a 130 Ampere "Delcotron" unit in some vehicles, almost immediately along with the 63 Ampere  standard models, from the start. The big jobs were found on ambulances, and other commercial vehicles.

Now, I'll probably get some static back from some 'learned" individual, saying that it was possible for a DC generator to charge at idle. I'll take him on.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

Glen

#9
OK Doug, how’s this?  You can get a generator to charge at idle.  All you have to do is change the generator pulley to a smaller one to bring the generator RPM up to a charging speed.  Just don’t rev up the engine because the high speed will blow the windings out of the armature and destroy it. 

Now if you had a variable ratio pulley….

Glen
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

#10
That was appparently what Cadillac was trying to accomplish with the unusual generator drive system on the 1938 V-16 which made the generator turn at twice the speed of the engine although with no power accessories or air conditioning, I don't know why they felt it was necessary. The generator on the Sixteens was moved further up on the block and run off the fan belts for 1939 and 1940, but I've never seen anything about why except for one statement that the "novel drive arrangement was unsuccessful".  Has the generator drive on your 38-90 given you trouble over your decades of ownership, Doug? Do you know why Cadillac used it only in 1938?

Doug Houston

RUSTY: Yep. That generator drive was used up to #176, I believe, then changed to the belt drive. The problem with it was that it would slip, and need to be adjusted, then never would work consistently. As far as the ratio goes, the generator always ran nearly twice  crankshaft speed. I seem to remember in the 1938 Cadillac manual, that the ratio was about 1.92 crankshaft speed for the V8 models.

There was a smaller generator pulley offered by Cadllac in the '41 model year. I have one on one of my '41's. But, I think that it was running mluck thin, though it does work.

The generator drive on my '38-90 (#16) is still on it, and was working last time the car was run, but.......  The one on my '39-90 is the belt drive, so I'd never worry about it.

Glen had the answer, right on the nose. Yes, all you need is a larger crankshaft pulley and / or a smaller generator pulley, and you have charging at idle. But when you're running at highway speeds, have your cell phone handy to calll road service.......you'll need it.

I have pictures of a starter armature that was spun to destruction on an Army truck in Korea. We never could duplicate it, but the commutator went first, then the winding ends flew, and shifted the laminations on the armature. We never could determine how, but the overrunning clutch on the starter drive had to have locked and the engine drove the starter to about 10 tumes RPM. I'll bet that it was a spectacle.

That  would be the scenario on a generator to a somewhat lesser degree. Until Sarkes Tarzian and Chrysler came up with the solution to the problem, the designers of ganerators were boxed in to an RPM and current limit.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

homeonprunehill

07-27-08
Doug,I once had a '60 VALANT,with the alternator charing system. I was telling some co-workiers about the alternator charing system,, when I was interuptioned by the boss, who told me in so many-words that I was full  of it, and that he had an auto electric set his up and that it would charge at idle. But, as you implyed, you can't talik to some people.

Good Luck,JIM
USED,ABUSED AND MISUSED CADILLACS AND LA SALLES

Art Gardner

Quote from: Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397 on July 26, 2008, 03:00:36 PM
I'm just surprised that the difference existed at all and I wouldn't be as much if Cadillac had the better setup instead of Buick. If Buick caught Cadillac by surprise (and that might have happened in those days when the divisons' engineering departments were fairly autonomous), you'd think that Cadillac would have adopted it for '54-'56. Since Cadillac had the ducted AC in the sedans, what kept them from putting it in the coupes? And here's another conundrum: Pontiac had a completely in-dash/underhood air conditioning system for 1954 (attached to an ancient flathead straight eight engine and running off a 6 volt electrical system, no less), but it took Cadillac until 1957 to get that big box with its handy "summer/winter" switch out of the trunk.
I am told that the reason that the coupes didn't use the clear tubes and headliner manifolds is that the coupe roof line is 2-3 inches shorter, so there is more room in the roof of a sedan to include the extra AC stuff.  Thus, in the coupes, Cadillac dispensed with that and just blew the cold air out of the vents in the rear package tray....

Art

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

The shorter roofline was what I had assumed was the reason the Cadillac coupes didn't use the roof duct system, but then I saw that "53 Roadmaster on ebay.  Since the Buick Super and Roadmaster and the Cadillac 62 (base and Coupe de Ville) all used the "C" body, if Buick could make it work, I can't see any reason why Cadillac couldn't have, too.