News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

4100 origins before 82?

Started by TJ Hopland, September 23, 2008, 08:40:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TJ Hopland

I was chatting with an older fellow on a job site this afternoon and we got talking about Cadillacs. Im not sure where it got his info but he did seem to know a lot.  It seems to be true that the 368 6.0 8-6-4 was intended to get Cadillac by (emissions & cafe standards) until the 'new' downsized transverse FWD cars came out 84 which did not happen till part through 85 due to transmission issues.  With all the 8-6-4 and Diesel issues they were forced to rush the 4100 into production early and put it in the existing cars which were much larger and heavier than what they had been designing the engine for.

What I had not heard before is that they were working on a 4100 like motor as far back as 76 and they wanted to use it in the Seville.  When it was not ready they were next going to use it starting in the 79 eldo.   He said it was a aluminum / iron motor.  There was many versions including a 4 valve and overhead cam option.  I guess they all used the Bendix multiport system.  He claims there were several running prototypes built and dropped into existing cars at the time for testing.  He claims that they never came to be because they were very complex designs that would have been much too costly to produce at the time.   Many of the lessons and design concepts ended up being the 4100 and from the sounds of things some even ended up in the northstar many years later.  I wonder if it was a combo of EFI computers and CNC machining that was holding them back in the 70's but made it possible later?

Anyone ever hear anything like this before? 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Guidematic

 That's all new information to me. It is conceivable, though, that this could have taken place. It's just that with all the reading every bit of information I can find on Cadillac, I have not heard of this.

I did hear that the 4100 was initially intended to be a 6ltr V-12. But, the second fuel crunch, and fears of even tighter fuel supplies, forced the development to take another direction. It was then made to fit in the upcoming FWD cars due in '84. There was even talk of the '86 Eldorado having a 3-cylinder engine!

It is conceivable that the 12 cylinder engine would have been fitted to the '79 Eldorado. The construction that focused on lightweight design, thus the extensive use of aluminum components.

Many GM divisions experimented with various designs. Far too many to list here, but study of them is fascinating. It's common knowledge that Cadillac experimented with a monstrous V-12 in the 60's, but scrapped that also. Pontiac and Oldsmobile both experimented with DOHC V-8's in the late 60's. Ford and Chrysler did the same. There was a running DOHC Hemi in the mid 60's, and in the 70's they experimented with a 440 cid Hemi with a ball and stud valvetrain.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

TJ Hopland

79 eldo with EFI aluminum V12...... that would have been cool!
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Ohio57-62Sedan

TJ I've never heard of that either but I like it..... If you can find that guy again ask him if he can documet any of that? just so the us mechanic's here can read about it. I think it's very possible that it did happen. The Bendix fuel injection system in my opinion were weak and unrelyable. as I still fix a few Seville computers what were they thinking Puting a map sensor and fuel pump + terminal in the computer?? It's still a problem with no real fix other than I put a Spade fuse to take the heat. But I don't think that cardone even made a good computer until the late 80's early 90's

Guidematic

 I think the Bendix system may have been a stop gap while they developed the digital EFI system. Now that system was revolutionary. Not many give it due credit. It was THE first self diagnostic system, and one that could adapt to changing conditions due to wear, climate and other external influences.

I remember how Cadillac flogged the system in 1980 when it came out. It was rocket science to mechanics. And rocket science it was. The technology was developed by Hughs Aerospace for use in the US space program.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

TJ Hopland

I recently read that the first car the bendix system was tried on was a 58 Desoto.  I guess it was very unreliable not to mention expensive.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

#6
Quote from: Mike Jones on September 24, 2008, 12:13:27 AM
There was even talk of the '86 Eldorado having a 3-cylinder engine!



Mike
Interesting information, Mike, but I can't believe that anyone, anywhere, talked seriously about a 3 cylinder '86 Eldorado.

35-709

#7
Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 24, 2008, 07:52:53 PM
I recently read that the first car the bendix system was tried on was a 58 Desoto.  I guess it was very unreliable not to mention expensive.

Believe that to be correct.  But, I also believe it was offered on the entire Chrysler line that year and Chrysler ended up buying them all back and converting the cars back to a carburetor (about 8 units if memory serves).  Somehow one person was able to keep his F.I. unit and it sat in his attic for many years until a chance conversation with the original owner's son (or an acquaintance) by a certain person looking to restore a '58 F.I. car finally put it in the restorer's possession --- for an undisclosed amount of cash.  The car being restored was indeed a '58 DeSoto convertible.  It was restored to perfection with every possible option offered by Chrysler for that year.  I saw the car at the Melbourne, Florida AACA show last winter, the car having just come from a Concours d'Elegance show at Amelia island, Florida.

Notice in the first picture the clock in the center of the steering wheel.  This was a self-winding clock (a Benrus I believe) that wound with the movement of the steering wheel.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

35-709

#8
Two more pics. of the DeSoto.  The injector 'firing' mechanism can just be seen attached to the side of the distributor.  It does not have dual carburetors as the air cleaners might lead you to believe.
:)
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

TJ Hopland

Cool info.  I guess it was based on aircraft technology.  One of the problems was the drivability range required by cars vs. aircraft and the other was the electronics were just not stable. I think the thing I read said the only other option in that price range (around $600 IIRC) was the special record player.


I could see a 3 cylinder concept.  Perhaps a turbo?  Buick was kicking some butt with their turbos at the time.  Maybe the 86 eldo was going to be a smaller 2 seater?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Guidematic

 I saw a photograph of that DeSoto engine without the air cleaners. It was indeed an electronic system, used 8 injectors and had 8 separate throttle plates. Further note, AMC experimented with the same system for the Rebel, but stopped development because of ongoing problems.

Pontiac also used a variation of the Bendix Lectri-jet system in the '57 Bonneville, but it also proved troublesome and was often replaced with a Tr-Power setup.

I read about the 3-cylinder Eldorado in the book "Cadillac Eldorado" by Howell and Howell. It was mentioned, and discussed but never went into any sort of real development. But, the parameters for the packaging of that car were. I think that the car was intended to have a V-6 engine, like that of the current Riviera and Toronada, but the car was split down the middle, and 3 inches added to the middle to make room for the V-8. This happened fairly late in the development.

Even Cadillac had no real interest in the car, and knew it was a mistake. But the edict had come from GM to do it. I think they did a pretty good job of the car given what they had to work with. But their fears were founded when Eldorado production went from 57,000 '85's to a mere 18,000 '86's. The '88 was an effort to try and regain some of the lost sales, and it proved somewhat successful. And they were better cars than many would have given credit for. I never had much good to say about them until I aquired my '88. Turns out I just love the car, but my wife likes it better, she has taken it over.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

homeonprunehill

09-25-08
MIKE, I think I saw a 1957 Corrvette with FI on it, I think it was made by "Bendex" ,they also had problems. HTH Good Luck,JIM
USED,ABUSED AND MISUSED CADILLACS AND LA SALLES

David #19063

The '58 Pontiac Bonneville also offered fuel injection.
David #19063
1996 DeVille Concours

TJ Hopland

I think the Vette and Bonni systems were made by Rochester.  They were mechanical.  Tach / timing was by a cable driven off the dizzy.  Amount of fuel was what amounted to be a pressure regulator.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Guidematic

 The systems used in the Bonneville and by Chevrolet were quite differant. Pontiac used the Bendix system, while Chevrolet used a mechanical speed density system built by Rochester Division called Ram Jet Fuel Injection.

It was first offered on all Chevrolet 283's in 2 power outputs. 250 and 283 HP. The higher used the mechanical Duntov cam. It was increased to 290 HP form '58 and the last year that it was offered on the standard passenger car was 1959. It continued to be available on Corvettes. In 1962 the system was applied to the new 327, and was offered until 1965 when it was rated at 390HP. After 1965, big block power surpassed the high winding small block and did it a lot cheaper, and FI was discontinued.

The system did work very well, but had it's idiosyncrasies. But in the hands of a knowledgeable tuner, they were unbeatable. It was also expensive.

This was the last fuel injection was offered on an American car until 1976 when it became standard on the new Seville and optional on the deVille and Fleetwood models.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

TJ Hopland

The pontiac was electric? I have seen those cars but dont remember noticing anything unusual about the engines.  IIRC those were a one per dealer deal so there were more than a few of them.  My dad is a pontiac guy, I have some books around here somewhere.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Guidematic

 Yeah, look it up. I'd love to see some pics of the system. All that I have read was that they werte Bendix lectri_jet systems, and that they performed so poorly that they were all pulled by the dealeres and replaced with Tri-Power. It would be really interesting if any have survived.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

35-709

Here's a little further information from allpar.com about the 1958 Chrysler F.I.  I was wrong about only 8 units being sold.

"Chrysler records show only 35 cars, including Chryslers, De Sotos, Dodges and Plvmouths, were built with the complex multi-port system which had two dual-point distributors (one for the ignition, one for the injectors), an electric fuel pump in the gas tank and two "black boxes," a resistance box and modulator mounted to the radiator support that were the brains of the system. The system was built by Bendix Aviation in Elmira, New York, and first used on aircraft during the Korean War. Because aircraft require fuel systems that only need to work at either idle or wide-open throttle, the Bendix engineers had to devise a way to make the system adapt to a car. In theory it  worked, but the system proved very troublesome, due mainly to the crude waxpaper-covered capacitors inside the black box, which failed often. Perhaps this is why GM's simpler, Rochester-built mechanical-type fuel-injection system proved far more usable.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Guidematic

 Interesting info there.

Of the system that Mercedes Benz used for the 300's, I think that was derived from the system used in the Daimler aircraft engines from WWII. But it was a purely mechanical system, and was a high pressure direct injection. I think this in turn was derived from the systems that Bendix perfected for high speed diesels in the late 20's that made the diesel engine practical for road vehicles.

Mike
1970 Fleetwood Brougham 68169
1985 Eldorado Coupe 6EL57
1988 Eldorado Biarritz 6EL57
1990 Brougham d'Elegance 6DW69
1994 Fleetwood Brougham 6DW69

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

#19
From what my late friend who drove the cars of Daimler-Benz in the '60's and '70's told me, you are right about the mechanical fuel injection in the 300.  It was then used in the 220SE, 250SE, etc., and was pretty reliable although it had a tendency to flood the engine on a hot restart.  He also gave me a humorous line about Mercedes during the several years they were advertised as "Engineered like no other car on earth".  He said that was without a doubt true and it was based on the principle of never using one part when four will work just as well.