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Let's hope that what's good for General Motors is still good for America

Started by Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397, November 07, 2008, 06:24:13 PM

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Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

If you want a very big dose of unpleasant reality, go to www.detnews.com and www.freep.com and read the auto section of the two Detroit dailies where, among other bad news, you'll learn that barring a huge infusion of cash from the federal government, General Motors will very likely become insolvent in the next 6-8 months.  The sad irony in this news is that Cadillac, which survived all the bad things of the '80's (HT4100's, V8-6-4-0's, diesels, TH200 transmissions, etc), and whose rebirth with some of the best products it has ever offered has been pointed to as what the General can do when it gets its act together, will go down with the ship if worse comes to worst. If there's any good news to be found in this mess, I guess it's that since the merger/acquisition talks with Chrysler and its owner du jour have been called off, if GM survives there won't be a Sebring-Eldorado convertible or Fleetwood minivan.

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Hi Rusty, I think the oil companies starting with Exxon ought to start giving all the auto companies billions to help them. It's crazy economics that they are makeing those kind of profits & the auto manufacturers are going broke.  What's WRONG with this picture???  Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

JerRita

Quote from: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on November 07, 2008, 10:11:20 PM
Hi Rusty, I think the oil companies starting with Exxon ought to start giving all the auto companies billions to help them. It's crazy economics that they are makeing those kind of profits & the auto manufacturers are going broke.  What's WRONG with this picture???  Bob

I totally agree with Bob with big oil racking it in they should cough it up to keep car makers solvent. I'm sure the auto industry helped big oil by not making the cars effecient earlier The general public does not realize that a fleetwood brougham can easily get 20 mpg on the road All they see is a big car and they percieve it to be a guzzlerer I know Toyotas that get worst mileage than my Cadillacs JerRita
Jerry and Rita Trapani #15725 Caddymaniacs

Matt CLC#18621


Mike Josephic CLC #3877

We've discussed this before, but here goes.  I've spent 35+ years in industry and have
seen these things come and go so here's my take -- FWIW.

You can't spend more that your cash flow allows or you go belly up -- in simple terms.
That's where GM, Ford and Chrsyler are now -- high fixed costs (wages, factories at
less than 50% of capacity, high benefit costs, etc).

When times were good and GM could sell every car they made (even though some were
less than "perfect") they granted the UAW contracts that the rest of us can only
dream about.  They have fully paid health benefits (even after retirement), the highest
wages in the world for assembly line jobs and even if layed off -- they still get paid!

When times were good (selling all they could produce) GM could afford this madness.
Now that the economy is in the dumper, and off-shore competition is high -- guess what!
GM can't afford this any longer.  They system is flawed and don't think that "Somebody
that big can't go under".  They can.

GM is talking about cutting their white collar staff and R&D to try to stay solvent.
This may help in the short term, but it will make them non-competitive later on and
come back to bite them.  When the Japanese, Indians and Chinese are turning out
new redesigned models -- they will have nothing to offer.  This tactic never works and is
born out of desperation.

Sorry -- government bailouts are not the answer.  It's bad management that you and I
should not have to subsidize.

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

EAM 17806

GM, FORD AND CHRYSLER MUST STAY AFLOAT BECAUSE THEY OUR OUR BACKBONE IN THE EVENT WE MAY NEED OUR WAR MATERIALS FOR OUR ARMED FORCES SUCH AS TANKS, TRUCKS CANONS, ETC. I HOPE YOU GUYS DON'T THINK WE SHOULD RELY ON FOREIGN COUNTRIES TO PROVIDE THESE ITEMS, IF YOU DO THEN YOU'RE LIVING IN "NEVER NEVER LAND".  THEY MUST SURVIVE IF FOR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THE SECURITY OF OUR PRECIOUS COUNTRY.  WHEN I WAS IN KOREA DURING THE WAR ALL OUR TANKS, ETC WERE MADE RIGHT HERE IN OUR USA AND WE ALSO PROVIDED THEM FOR OUR "UN" ALLIES TOO. IT IS TOO BAD WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEM BUT THEY MUST STAY SOUND AND I DON'T CARE HOW.  EAM
Ev Marabian

1976 Cadillac Coupe DeVille, 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic, 1990 Pontiac Bonneville and 1996 Buick Skylark

wrefakis

Sorry GM's answer to the warning of 1973 ( Iwas a dealer from 71-00) was to re-badge the 5000 lb 73 fleetwood and call it an escalade,they have a cost per unit that will not allow profitability on a small car line up,I recall well standing in the showroom in 73-74 under seige by 72 cadillac owners looking to trade out of the cars at any price because gas was .60 cents,HOWEVER,FEAR NOT,AS GOES GM,SO GOES AMERICA!!!  GM IS HERE TO STAY!! They are doing what we do best in todays america,just as way back they did in the 'GLORY YEARS'  In todays America,we borrow!!!  And,when we take in 5,need 8,we BORROW.  GM will be "recapitalized"" and will forge ahead!!  You see,if GM folded (IMPOSSIBLE),the government will have to bail out all the workers that BORROWED too much on thier homes,cars,credit cards,the systemic fallout from all the BORROWING at a corp and personal level is beyond imagination!!   So fear not,CADILLAC is here to stay!!!! (GM stock may go to zero,but the us will cover the bonds!!)

wrefakis

On Oil,who do you think had the largest profit on domestic consumption last year?

Johnny

Quote from: JerRita on November 07, 2008, 10:20:44 PM
I totally agree with Bob with big oil racking it in they should cough it up to keep car makers solvent. I'm sure the auto industry helped big oil by not making the cars efficient earlier The general public does not realize that a fleetwood brougham can easily get 20 mpg on the road All they see is a big car and they perceive it to be a guzzlerer I know Toyotas that get worst mileage than my Cadillacs JerRita

I disagree.  Why should the oil companies help bailout the auto manufacturers, when in fact its the American people that caused it, when they started buying the imports some 30+ years ago, when we had the first "oil shortage?".  Sure I realize that getting better gas mileage was a major concern, plus we found out that the imports were better built, but at what cost was it to be to start buying the imports?  For many years I have been preaching its financial suicide to deaf ears.  This is not to say, that I think people should have spent their money on junk, and in fact the imports did something we couldn't do ourselves, and that is to get the manufacturers to build better cars!

I fear today its just too late to turn things around, and the possibility of us losing our auto producers could be a reality, just as we have no TV producers any more.  Just like most things we buy today are produced in China, so will our cars be produced by foreign manufacturers.  Sure they might be produced here in the USA, and supply jobs to Americans, but the profits still go overseas.

By the way, where is it written that cars have to be produced in Detroit?  Sure in the beginning it was convenient to produce cars in Detroit, but that is no longer true, as the import manufacturers have known, and opened plants in more suitable areas, i.e. weather.

Rich S

Cadillac has delayed the CTS Coupe ("CTC" ?) for another year, along with delaying of some "otherwise ready" new models from General Motors:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-delays-cts-coupe-9-5-9-4x-cruze-to-2011.html

It's quite unfortunate, whether you liked the uniquely styled new model or not, because delays such as this are a hindrance to General Motors being competitive in the marketplace. GM also recently removed Jim Taylor as General Manager of Cadillac, leaving the brand under the guidance of a 'luxury group' composed of Cadillac-Saab-Hummer.   
Rich Sullivan CLC #11473

1971 Eldo Conv., 2013 CTS Cpe

milton

Quote from: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on November 07, 2008, 10:11:20 PM
Hi Rusty, I think the oil companies starting with Exxon ought to start giving all the auto companies billions to help them. It's crazy economics that they are makeing those kind of profits & the auto manufacturers are going broke.  What's WRONG with this picture???  Bob
That is a very very VERY good point................

Johnny

Quote from: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on November 07, 2008, 10:11:20 PM
Hi Rusty, I think the oil companies starting with Exxon ought to start giving all the auto companies billions to help them. It's crazy economics that they are makeing those kind of profits & the auto manufacturers are going broke.  What's WRONG with this picture???  Bob

You got to be kidding!  The oil companies, don't care into what tanks their gas flows....old, new, domestic or imported......as they know they will sell the same amount of gas.  The fact is that in the last 30 years, GM and the other didn't stay competitive, and weren't able to offer the same quality products as the imports.

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Johnnie, you are missing my point. The oil companies are selling LESS gas now. The trickle down effect is killing the world. Even foreign car companies are hurting. I hope the commodity speculators, oil companies & everyone associated with those prices are proud of their work & what it's done, & I guess you agree with them. Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Johnny

Quote from: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on November 09, 2008, 12:14:07 PM
Johnnie, you are missing my point. The oil companies are selling LESS gas now.

I don't have any figures at my finger tips, and I am not that sure the oil companies are selling less, but the fact remains their profits are still at record levels.




QuoteI hope the commodity speculators, oil companies & everyone associated with those prices are proud of their work & what

Lets not forget the American public contibuting also.  As gas prices go up, consumption goes down, resulting in less profits, which forces the oil companies to lower their prices to an acceptable level for the consumer, whereas they resume their normal driving.

.

buicksplus

GM abandoned major parts of the American market and they took many years to do it.  Now they wonder what happened to them.  Years ago many analyists talked about how risky it was for GM to put all their chips in the SUV market, yet they did it anyway.

The only GM cars we have are our collector cars.  Our daily drivers are all imports, they are much more economical, reliable, and suited to our needs.  We aren't hippies either, we just never found the need to own huge SUV's and don't particularly like driving or parking them.

When I read how much effort GM is putting into developing the new Camaro, it makes me sad.  Not that I don't like Camaros, but it has been obvious for several years that the market for performance cars is shrinking. Ditto for the Dodge Challenger, it is destined to repeat the failure of the original Challenger -- Nice car but the wrong one at the wrong time.  Where is the effort for our domestic industry to bring us small, economical cars for this new age?  I understand Roger Penske is importing the Smart car pretty much on his own.  What is our domestic industry doing to line us up better with modern needs?

I hope GM survives but I'm not anxious to see bailout dollars flow their way.  I imagine they will use it to do more of the same. Hopefully some of their outstanding workers can get jobs at domestic Honda, Toyota, Subaru plants here.
Bill Sullivan CLC# 12700

Rich S

Not all of us with "collector" Cadillacs have them alongside imports in our stable. My 2008 CTS-4 is a great machine, quite competitive with anything in its class. It replaced my original 2003 CTS (bought in 2002) which was a trouble-free car for almost six years of ownership. It is disappointing to me when I see many retired American professionals driving around in a Lexus ES and it makes me think that twenty or thirty years ago, the people in that walk of life, would have been driving Cadillac or Lincoln products--or something else made in the USA. Many individuals who were Cadillacs traditional customer base, don't even shop for American cars, rather they sing the praises of Lexus or BMW to each other, and they want to continue "keeping up with the Joneses," so Cadillac may not even be on their "shopping list of cars." Admittedly, those imports are fine brands (with excellent products), but it has contributed to a most unfortunate situation, and the Nation is seeing the effects of this attitude. Keeping Cadillac innovative, and at the leading edge of the luxury car curve, used to have a "trickle-down" effect for all the other GM divisions. As often said, "what's good for GM, is good for the USA." Likewise, a healthy Cadillac division, leads to a healthy GM. The sad fact is that they're letting the DTS die a slow death, like the Eldorado model, by not updating it, to keep it competitive, for a dozen or more years. Most unfortunate is that GM doesn't have the funds for the necessary Research & Development to do so (i.e. significantly upgrade Cadillac's "flagship" full-sized sedan model).

The situation is also compounded by the general improvements of all segments of cars, large or small, basic or luxury, during the past twent or thirty years, compared to their counterparts today. There is now less distinction between those categories of cars. 

Sorry for the long post, but just my 0.02 cents! For the record, there are still a few of us who choose not to buy an import brand car (and, if you're wondering, I'm 44).
Rich Sullivan CLC #11473

1971 Eldo Conv., 2013 CTS Cpe

Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397

#16
I don't agree with the statement that the DTS/Deville hasn't been updated in a dozen years.  It's been on the same basic platform all that time, but fairly major changes were made to it for 2000 and 2006 in body style, interior, and features (get out of a 1996 and into a 2000 and a 2008 and no part of the interiors will look the same).  I would, however, agree that the Eldorado was not significantly updated in its last generation from 1992 to 2002. 

Rich S

Thanks for clarifying my remarks--in 2006 there was a makeover of the DTS, but not a completely new model series, rather a significant freshening of the 2000-2005 version. Many automotive critics write that the DTS should have an updated transmission (i.e. six or more speeds), possibly be rear wheel drive and have available all-wheel-drive capability, and other technologies common to its class of car. In my opinion, the DTS is still a great automobile, one that Cadillac should definitely be committed to improving, but it could sell better if it received more appropriate updating, thus more accolades.
Rich Sullivan CLC #11473

1971 Eldo Conv., 2013 CTS Cpe

kelly

I, also, am a real fan of of the DTS model. My last three cads were a 2002, 2006 and 2008 models.  With each, the diivision has improved on the previous offering.  I had my wife hop in a STS awd last go around, and we never got off the lot.  She said, "this isn't it. This is like our Porsche... too small."
  The DTS is the last bastion of high quality, fuel efficient luxury sedans offered by GM. It has a place today and tommorrow. Besides, what the hell would we do for a great hearse/limo platform without it? If they build them, I will buy/lease them! Join me in the support of the large platform effort. Who wants to collect an Avalon or Lexis?
Kelly Martin
1957 75 series, 1990 Brougham, 2008 DTS
Kelly Martin
1957 Fleetwood 75
2008 DTS

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Yes, I also love the DTS and think it's a great platform.

Too bad the management at Cadillac have chosen to kill it.  I personally
think that's a mistake.

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region