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Author Topic: Should We Bail Out the Auto Makers?-Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008, 12:00AM  (Read 3034 times)

Offline Matt CLC#18621

  • Posts: 707
  • CLC Number: 18621
  • Name: Matt Shafer
by Mick Weinstein

« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 12:19:06 PM by Matt CLC#18621 »

Offline Walter Youshock

  • Posts: 2970
The grand-scale debate will be handled in DC.  As this pertains to the CLC:  No more GM=no more Cadillac.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

If the worst comes and GM ceases to exist, will that be the end of factory parts and warranty?

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
I think you're being a little premature. If GM files for bankruptcy, I 'm sure it will be a restructuring rather than an all out closing. GM will still exist and try to pull itself up under the protection chapter(7, 11?) grants.

2 or three of our major airlines have operated or are now operating under these same conditions and the public is virtually unaware of the fact.

If GM decides it can't continue even under bankruptcy protection, there will be a sale of its assets - including the trademarks and rights to make spare parts. I

The only thing that can help GM in its current situation is a cancellation of all its union contracts. Other concerns are secondary to this.
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

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Gene Moscicki

  • Guest
 :D Unions and high wages. don't make me laugh.
What about the CR*P they made during the 70s, 80, 90s it is a wonder the consumer has let them last this long. Look at any recent GM product to see how many people have to tape up the side windows when the junk in them breaks and the window falls open. They send Jobs OFF SHORE for GREED. Cadillac haqs not made a deasent car since the 70 modle year. As for old caddys, cant get new parts now so good luck to all, place the blame squarely on the shoulders of maqnagment that does not have the abliity to give the consumer what it wants. A QUALITY PRODUCT for this they will buy. We are not as dumb as we once were. Thats my take on this
Heck you cannot even list a good engine made by Cadillac on the foram I remember having my 54 Eldorado at a dealer sponsered show in the 90s looking at the new 50k Eldorado with an interior that looked like a city buss seats in it I have an 05 Chevy Malibu, Robo cop styling ugly would not have been my first choice the price was right and I am very happy with it. I like it better then My Lexus  TOO little too late to save the name Look at the GTO all the power of the name, but it looked like A Cevy Caviiler another missed oppertunity.

I very much disagree with the statement that GM is currently making poor quality vehicles.  GM vehicles of the past five years or so have matched or exceeded the quality of Toyota and other "benchmarks".  One good example of GM's turnaround is the '08 and '09 Malibus which are so so much bigger, better, smoother, quieter and generally more refined than the '07 and earlier models that they deserved a new name.  Comparison tests have shown them to be as good or better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry and J. D. Power just named it the best midsize car in initial quality. Another earthquake occurred when Consumer Reports rated the '08 CTS higher than the 3 Series BMW.  By the way, I have never seen any recent GM car with the window taped closed.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 10:06:28 PM by Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397 »

Gene Moscicki

  • Guest
 :other You need to look for it ALL 4 windows on my sons 2000 Olds have fallen. I have replaced two regulators the othet two TAPE .The rear on my Malibu failed 2 years from new. I never use the rear window and now have it permanently in up position with the help of a bracket to hold it up.Btw my Lexus is cuming up on 13 years, NEVER had  window problem. You can only have one first impression of a car. Again Many missed oppertunitys.

Offline XGLEGAL

  • Posts: 44
  • CLC # 24068
I agree with Rusty's comments.  The product offerings at GM are certainly much better in recent years, and the line-up is much more appealing than even several years ago. 
   Unfortunately, the "bash American cars" mentality is all too easy for some but it is not backed up (any more) with empirical tests.  The reality is that PERCEPTION and REALITY are not always in concert, and that time lag before they re-connect is plaguing the US autos.  I believe we are (and have been) in a such a time period right now, and the American cars are actually a better overall value in many cases - but for too many buying a toyota or honda seems like a safe idea without much consideration of other options.
  We will see how this all plays out, but it would be sad to see GM or Ford (also with a much improved line-up) go at this point when so many improvements have been made and promising vehicles (e.g., Volt, Camaro) are on the horizon.  Perhaps without the abnormal credit conditions (and general economic malaise) the US automakers would be on the verge of better performance and sustained viability - IF that is the case then surely some transitional assistance to make it to those brighter days is in order.
Xavier A. Gutierrez, Esq.  CLC # 24068
_______________________________________________________
1959 CDV (2)
1957 Ser. 62 Coupe
1957 Eldo Brougham
1957 Ser. 62 Conv.
1957 Eldo Biarritz
1957 CDV
1961 Ser. 62 Conv.

Offline David #19063

  • Posts: 256
I have family and friends that have had trouble free foreign cars for many years.  But I also have some that have had as many problems as American cars.

But what is real obvious to me is this...

I remember in the 80's of seeing plethoras of Toyota Celica's, Sentra's, Supra's, Honda Civic's, Accord's, Datsun B210's, 280Z's, VW Rabbit's, Jetta's, Dasher's, Audi 4000's, 5000's, Fox's, etc.

But if I see an '80's car on the road today, it is usually a Buick, Olds, Pontiac, Cadillac, or Lincoln.  Occasionally I see a old Taurus but not any Tempo's or early 80's Ford's.  Almost never do I see a 80's Chrysler.

Why are far and away the majority of 15+ year old cars on the road GM's?

If foriegn cars are so great, why aren't their 80's versions and early 90's versions still on the road?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 08:16:21 PM by David #19063 »
David #19063
1996 DeVille Concours

Offline wrefakis

  • Posts: 805
Guys the quality is not the issue,my first set of front pads were replaced at 108k miles in my 05 town car,at 112k other than the strut equivalent of ball joints,shocks,and pads(rears at 88k),all original,have 06 buick,had 06 yukon,never saw service,the problem is that GM has become an entitlement agency,paying full benefits to my bodyman's dad who worked for them in the 50's and 60's!!  The toyotas built here are in some cases at a 50% labor cost advantage. All that is needed is to void the agreements that date back to when GM had a 60 market share,and get your pay scale to those of the competition,then the free market will correct the imbalance caused by the union welfare costs. Prediction,no one (GM,FORD,CHRYSLER) will file prior to 1-20-09.  Now the question for 1-22-09,are we capitalist,or socialist???  pick one side and act,create quasi private enterprise thru goverment transfer payments to welfare recipients,or rescind onerous pay scale and benefits,and get america buying again!

Jim Garner

  • Guest
There should be no taxpayer money going to anyone, not even the mismanaged financial institutions. We are too late on that one. The only hope for GM and the other US companies is to file Chapter 11 and shed baggage such as unreasonable union contracts and excess overhead. In essence they would get a new beginning.

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
I agree with some of Genes statements and disagree with others.

True: The US automakers virtually handed over the marketplace to imports (now made here) because of the utter crap they produced during the 1970s and into the 1980s.

Today they are equal to or superior to their competitors but they lost the respect of an entire generation (or 2) of auto purchasers. These people won't consider an American car because they watched their parents drive shoddy heaps that fell apart 6 months after they were made.

As far as the term "greedy" is concerned, I doubt whether anyone here could give an reasonable definition. It's over used and virtually meaningless. It is the duty of any businessman to build his product as cost effectively as possible. If that means building it in Mexico, so be it. That's not greed, that's common sense.

Many companies choose to manufacture their products in other countries for the simple fact that our punishing tax system discourages domestic production. People need to realize that corporations do not pay taxes. Individuals pay taxes. Corporate income tax is ultimately paid by the consumer in the form of higher prices, by the worker in the form of lower wages,  and by the shareholder in the form of smaller dividends.

Our excessively high corporate income tax rate is the main reason that companies choose to build elsewhere.  Take a look at the countries with the lowest corporate tax rates and you will see huge amounts of investment in manufacturing. Ireland is one of the most notable in recent years. They have so many new jobs as a result of their favorable tax system that they have to import workers to fill them all.

fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

Offline Glasspacks56

  • Posts: 6
I have family and friends that have had trouble free foreign cars for many years.  But I also have some that have had as many problems as American cars.

But what is real obvious to me is this...

I remember in the 80's of seeing plethoras of Toyota Celica's, Sentra's, Supra's, Honda Civic's, Accord's, Datsun B210's, 280Z's, VW Raibbit's, Jetta's, Dasher's, Audi 4000's, 5000's, Fox's, etc.

But if I see an '80's car on the road today, it is usually a Buick, Olds, Pontiac, Cadillac, or Lincoln.  Occasionally I see a old Taurus but not any Tempo's or early 80's Ford's.  Almost never do I see a 80's Chrysler.

Why are far and away the majority of 15+ year old cars on the road GM's?

If foriegn cars are so great, why aren't their 80's versions and early 90's versions still on the road?

I can vouch with that! I've once owned a '75 Honda civic, and a 86 Toyota tercel. Both cars self destructed! THe Tercel had less than 60,000 miles, and it litterally fell apart! Rust, and bad mechanics did it! And I take good care of my cars! The Honda...well, the front strut pushed the hood open---again, rust! That was my vow to never buy Japanese again! I'll take a big American car anytime!
Al Coia (CLC#24903)
1956 Kustom Sedan Deville
1995 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

Gene Moscicki

  • Guest
I will try to expand on a couple of points. Recent products= last 10 years. Here in Arizona there is no such worry about rust ending the life of a car. I saw a 59 Impalla on the road today, so my interpitation of recent varies from others
When the large electronics compaany I once thought I had a secure Job  closed many factories and moved to China And India, Stock was selling for $150.00 a share, now for less than $5. The only Value is the instant reduction in cost. Gee dont Executives get paid on how much money they save?? Short time Greed, Long time desaster!! Last I saw GM stock was down 98%  Where is the value there?? My only concern is for the overpaid UNION workers and the pensions of the retired. You ALL know who is to blame. I see no clear desire of any under 30 crowd of buying a U.S. nameplate. as stated preception is reality. None of my 3 have only U.S names. Even my son with the OLDS has a Nisson Truck. What do you all think the children of todays youth will buy. Place your bets.

Offline Chris Conklin

  • Posts: 1041
  • CLC Number: 25055
  • Name: Chris Conklin
The genie is out of the bottle.

The modern day bread line is not comprised of out of work labor. This is the new bread line. Major corporations and executives tin cup in hand. Using our money in an attempt (I think in vain) to not have the bread lines we had in the past. Even with us propping up businesses, they may be doomed to failure anyway. Or, as some have posted here, they really do deserve to fail. And some of the stipulations that may go with the award of assistance to the auto industry will likely doom them as well. I've been hearing extreme CAFE standards touted as a stipulation, 100 MPG cars in 5 years or no money! Hmmm, I don't know of any performance stipulations put on the financial industry for their bailouts.... "20.75% annualized return on all investments or no bailout!"

All of this just so we don't hear the "D-word"; Depression. It will be a very deep and protracted "R-word" though. But I have about ten years left to get my 401k back to normal. What? Me worry?
Chris Conklin

Offline Otto Skorzeny

  • Posts: 3853
  • 1956 Coupe de Ville aka Bismarck
I encourage everyone to watch this short video on the the most advanced automobile assembly plant in the world. It's in Brazil. Why? because the United Auto Workers Union will not allow it to be built in the United States.

I know this isn't the only reason the Big Three are in trouble but it's a big part of the problem.

I'll also post this in the other thread with a similar theme.

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189
fward

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for YOURSELF

HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE

 

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