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Good-bye Pontiac

Started by David #19063, November 27, 2008, 11:39:02 AM

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David #19063

Good-bye Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, and Saab.


GM To Dump Pontiac?

NEW YORK November 26, 2008; Jonathan Stempel writing for Reuters reported that General Motors Corp is mulling whether to shed its Pontiac, Saab and Saturn brands, as well as its Hummer brand, as part of a plan to win $12 billion of U.S. government loans, Bloomberg News said on Wednesday, citing people familiar with the matter.

GM was not immediately available for comment.

Federal lawmakers last week rejected pleas from GM, Ford Motor Co and Chrysler LLC for $25 billion of loans, and asked the automakers to submit detailed turnaround plans.

The lawmakers are scheduled to reconvene during week or December 8 to review any plans and consider aid. Some analysts have said GM's remaining equity value could be essentially wiped out by any government recapitalization.

GM has said it might run short of operating cash by early 2009 if it doesn't find help.

GM directors are scheduled to review a proposal November 30 and December 1, the Bloomberg article said, citing people familiar with the plans.

Shares of GM closed Wednesday up $1.25 at $4.81 after Deutsche Bank analyst Rod Lache said the chances of a bailout have improved because of growing concern that doing nothing would further damage the U.S. economy.

GM's other U.S. brands are Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The automaker dropped its Oldsmobile brand earlier this decade. Private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP controls Chrysler.

Editing for Reuters by Christian Wiessner
David #19063
1996 DeVille Concours

TJ Hopland

Its good to see that they are at least asking for a plan before they give a way the money.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Johnny

Sort of surprising to hear, as its been the popular thinking that Buick would be the next division to go.  Sort of makes sense to let Pontiac go, as it used to be their performance division, but with them getting rid of the Bonneville, screwing up both the Gran Prixs and GTO's, they completely got out of that market, while it appears that Buick is starting to their act together, by eliminating low selling models and narrowing themselves down to just 3 models, 2 sedans and 1 crossover the Enclave, which replaced the popular Rendezvous, we had 2 of them.  In addition they offer the Lucerne and Lacrosse in an upscale Super series.

In any event, unless GM stops dragging their feet in making changes, they could be on the outside looking in!

David #19063

Buick is the biggest selling car in China. 

They have models there we do not have.
David #19063
1996 DeVille Concours

Ted in Olympia WA

I still miss the Olds.  Also over the years I thought that Pontiac had the best stying up front.

But I guess this process all started in the mid to late 70's when all the brands became mostly the same. 

Only Cadillac (mostly) kept it own idenity.  But some models did share, like the fleetwood.

TED
Selling used Eldorado Parts from 1971-1978.  Member Number 25659.

Eric S. Maypother #15104

Even though I've only owned Cadillac and plan to only own Cadillac's it's still to bad to see some of the sister cars go, but if it needs to be done to save the rest, namely Cadillac I can live with it.

I agree with the other posters to, some of these cars are just the other brands cars with different tail lights and trim.

I don't think many of us will miss the Saab's though, I thought the Saturn's seemed popular, the Hummers are basically a square body on a Tahoe frame.
Eric :)
1990 Cadillac Brougham

Joe Manna

If the CEO's of the big 3 didn't show up in their own private jets,they just might gotten some money from the gov't.GM messed up big time when they did away with the RWD Roadmasters and the 98's.
1951 Chevrolet Bel-Air-50's Style Custom
1963 Cadillac 4 Window Sedan deVille
1991 Cadillac DW69 Brougham,All original and used daily
2015 Cadillac SRX

Brian Daum

To me it`s nothing but sad, sad, sad...

Think of the Chieftain`s, Bonneville`s, Trans Am`s and GTO`s

What have this crazy world come to?
1956 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1959 Cadillac Coupe DeVille
1998 Cadillac DeVille d`Elegance

Ted in Olympia WA

I think just about all Saturns now are Opels and made in Germany.  So to get rid of Saturn I guess that GM will sell the Opel division or quit importing them to the US.

I drove a new Saturn the other day and it was a very nice driving car.

TED
Selling used Eldorado Parts from 1971-1978.  Member Number 25659.

Brian Daum

Opel is hardly worth selling either. They are just about bankrupt. In the old days Opel was a car to be reckoned with.  You rarely see new Opels anymore on the roads. Opel and Saab are not worth much.
1956 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1959 Cadillac Coupe DeVille
1998 Cadillac DeVille d`Elegance

Ted in Olympia WA

I thought that Opel was a fairly popular car in Europe.  My co-worker is German and he said and the the Opel brand is very popular in Germany.

This is from Wikipedia
Saturns are now virtually identical to certain Opel models. For example, the 2008 Saturn Vue is a rebadged Opel Antara, while the Opel GT is based on the Saturn Sky. The Opel Astra is imported as the Saturn Astra (replacing the Ion as the entry-level car), and the Saturn Aura is similar to the Opel Vectra. The Saturn Astra is built in Antwerp, Belgium.

I know, what does this have to do with Cadillac?

TED

I never did like Saab.

Selling used Eldorado Parts from 1971-1978.  Member Number 25659.

homeonprunehill

11-29-08
TED,Let's not forget the Cadillac-CATERA by OPEL, that zigged when it should have zagged! Which  brings mje to a funny (Strange) story I met the grand son of DR Chkalov and her aero plane desinger husband. He was driving a Big Black-Cheverolt with fizzle Dice hanging from the rear view mirrow I asked him What is tjhe most popular car in RUSSELL today I throught he would say MB but he superised me by saying ford-TAURIS. According to him the MB would not stand-up-to the rought road in Russell
USED,ABUSED AND MISUSED CADILLACS AND LA SALLES

Brian Daum

Quote from: Ted in Olympia WA on November 29, 2008, 08:15:49 PM
I thought that Opel was a fairly popular car in Europe.  My co-worker is German and he said and the the Opel brand is very popular in Germany.

This is from Wikipedia
Saturns are now virtually identical to certain Opel models. For example, the 2008 Saturn Vue is a rebadged Opel Antara, while the Opel GT is based on the Saturn Sky. The Opel Astra is imported as the Saturn Astra (replacing the Ion as the entry-level car), and the Saturn Aura is similar to the Opel Vectra. The Saturn Astra is built in Antwerp, Belgium.

I know, what does this have to do with Cadillac?

TED

I never did like Saab.




The Opel WAS popular in Europe, not anymore. Even recently when times were good, Opel sales have gone down, their products just do not sell, compared to the other popular German brands.  But thru the years they were very popular. You had popular models like the Kapitan, Commodore, Rekord and Kadett. They even had styling influences from the US, the old Kapitans even had wrap-around windshields.

Opel just recently asked the German Government for financial aid, and they have also been forced to lay off thousands of workers. They are probably heading down the drain as well.

The Saab has always been a bit strange car, although somewhat popular in Northern Europe. (Good winter driving abilities)  Saab has had troubles for years, and it surprises me that GM didn`t sell them earlier. These days they are not worth much. They are asking the Swedish Government for back up too. The Trollhattan community solely depends on Saab, and will be hard stricken if Saab closes down.
1956 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1959 Cadillac Coupe DeVille
1998 Cadillac DeVille d`Elegance

Ted in Olympia WA

When I went to Saturn about a month ago they had a lot of 2008 models still on the lot; over half of the cars.  I asked them if there was a good deal on the 2008 and they said no, we only do sticker price but they are about $500 cheaper than the 2009 models.  At a time when no one is selling cars Saturn is still trying to get sticker price only; not a good business plan.  Now I see they are doing "red tag specials" but so is everyone else.  I find that it is fun to deal on a new car and if I can't then I'm not going to buy.

I came very close to buying a 2008 HHR SS (used buy with 2k miles) but we just could not come to a meeting of the minds.  We were about $500 difference (I offered 18k but they wanted 18.5k and it still for sale) but still about 8k off the sticker price of a 2009 new one. 

I see you can save 5-6k on a new Cadillac but they are still 40k to buy.  I don't see a lot of buyers for these.

Times are tough for car dealers.

I'm glad I did not buy, I just do not need a new car.

TED
Selling used Eldorado Parts from 1971-1978.  Member Number 25659.

TJ Hopland

I have heard that the small independent used dealers have some pretty good deals going but otherwise even the 'we just bought out another dealer inventory reduction sale' is not enough to get people to buy. Makes me wonder if maybe there is a deeper 'plan' going on somewhere higher up the ladder.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Johnny

Quote from: Ted in Olympia WA on November 30, 2008, 09:32:27 AM
When I went to Saturn about a month ago they had a lot of 2008 models still on the lot; over half of the cars.  I asked them if there was a good deal on the 2008 and they said no, we only do sticker price but they are about $500 cheaper than the 2009 models.  At a time when no one is selling cars Saturn is still trying to get sticker price only; not a good business plan.  Now I see they are doing "red tag specials" but so is everyone else.  I find that it is fun to deal on a new car and if I can't then I'm not going to buy.

I came very close to buying a 2008 HHR SS (used buy with 2k miles) but we just could not come to a meeting of the minds.  We were about $500 difference (I offered 18k but they wanted 18.5k and it still for sale) but still about 8k off the sticker price of a 2009 new one. 

I see you can save 5-6k on a new Cadillac but they are still 40k to buy.  I don't see a lot of buyers for these.

Times are tough for car dealers.

I'm glad I did not buy, I just do not need a new car.

TED

Ted, if you don't need a new car, then why were you out looking around?  Don't you think things are tough enough for car salesmen, "the little guys", then for you to go window shopping and wasting their time?  Sure it might be fun for you, but these men and women are now hanging on shoe string, and to have fun at their expense, doesn't seem right to me.  Sure there was a time when we all played the game of haggling with the car salesmen, but we are in different times.  How would you like it if someone came to where you worked, just to have fun with you, while you were trying to earn a living?

TJ Hopland

Sounds to me like Ted has decided what he wants to pay for that car.  He made an offer, they did not accept it.  Sounds like a pretty typical buyer / seller situation to me.  I dont see a problem.   I dont 'need' a new car either but if there was a good enough deal on something I like I would get one. Only way to find out is to stop at a dealer and see what they have.   My last new car had 200 miles on it when I got it.  It was a new at the time Hemi.  How many of those 40? people just wanted to drive a hemi?   How many bought one or maybe something else from that dealer?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Johnny

Quote from: TJ Hopland on November 30, 2008, 01:49:07 PM
Sounds to me like Ted has decided what he wants to pay for that car.  He made an offer, they did not accept it.  Sounds like a pretty typical buyer / seller situation to me.  I dont see a problem.   I dont 'need' a new car either but if there was a good enough deal on something I like I would get one. Only way to find out is to stop at a dealer and see what they have.   My last new car had 200 miles on it when I got it.  It was a new at the time Hemi.  How many of those 40? people just wanted to drive a hemi?   How many bought one or maybe something else from that dealer?


I really don't see the logic of buying a car just because its "a sweetheart of a deal".  If that is the case, then the whole country should be out buying cars, as the discounts being offered by all the American manufacturers are unheard of!  He already was looking at a $8000 discount on a car, and held off for another $500.  What else did he want, free gas for the life of the car?  It seems to me that the only reasons a person buys a new car, whether new or used is because they need one, or like myself, wants to have a new car, every 3 years.  When its decided to get a new one, I agree that we should shop around and try to get the best deal.

No one hates the whole new car buying experience more then me.  I am the last one to try and defend dealers and sales persons, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the dealers and sales people are trying to make a living, and as such, especially now, when they are all fightning for survivial, and we shouldn't be playing games for fun with them.  I just hope that these deals are still lin existence when my lease expires in another year.


Ted in Olympia WA

#18
I was not playing with them and I was at that time ready to buy a new car.  I have excellent credit and could buy any car I want, but I'm not going to pay more than current market conditions just to make the salesman happy.  Also I admit I'm a bit cheap and about 20k is my limit for a new car but I did buy a 2006 350Z for $29,000 for my wife.  What women want women get, but this car was for me.

On the HHR I was not the one playing games the salesman was.  I was the one that found the car that was about 60 miles away.  I offered him by phone what I thought was a fair price.  He came back with come on up and look at it, I will even give you a free dinner just for coming.  I told him that I did not want to waste his time unless he was willing to accept my offer.  He told me that he thought a deal could be made and I should come and see him, I told him I would the next day.  The next day I called him and told him again that I was not willing to come up unless I had a firm committment on price, he said he had to ask his boss and came back with the $500 more price.  I told him that I was firm on my price, he said he would call me back but he never did.   I'm not even 100% sure he would have honered his $18,500 price in person.

Who is the one playing the game.  I would never consider willing to spend $18,000 a game.  If the car is exactly as advertised they would of had a deal.

No one ever "needs" a new car; there are a ton of used ones out there.  I have purchased a few new cars in the past and I always make them go through the full circle and play the dealers against each other.  No matter how popular a car is I will never pay more than sticker price on a new car (currently I would not pay even close) and I will never pay more than blue book on a used car.  This keeps me from ever getting a new Shelby or Challenger.

If this makes the poor dealership and saleman un-happy, so be it.  They make it up by taking advantage of younger inexperience buyers.

I had it narrowed down to a few models I wanted but could not make a deal that made me feel good.   Most GM dealers would say "you should have been here last month when we had employee pricing, they were cheper then".   So I could have purchased it cheaper last month but this month I have to pay more; does this make sense?

Anyway I came to my senses and decided to continue to drive my 2003 Venture a bit longer.  The main thing is that I need a car that will haul pretty good size box of Cadillac parts to the post office/FedEx; the HHR SS would have done this and been a lot more fun to drive.  I like new cars but I don't need one.

I have people beat me down on my prices all the time and many times it means that I don't make a sale.  But with my parts there are a bit limited market for both sides.  I also stand behind the parts I sell and will do anything to make the customer happy, not all dealers you can say this for.

There is not a lack of new cars or good deals; there is a lack of qualified buyers and new cars that people are willing to buy.  In 1991 you could buy a new GEO that got 58 mpg, now the best you can do is in the high 30's.  New car makers have put quality and research on hold.  You cannot buy a better car today than you could 15 years ago; only a new one to replace the one you alraeady have.

TED
Selling used Eldorado Parts from 1971-1978.  Member Number 25659.

Johnny

Quote from: Ted in Olympia WA on November 30, 2008, 04:57:14 PM
I was not playing with them and I was at that time ready to buy a new car.  I have excellent credit and could buy any car I want, but I'm not going to pay more than current market conditions just to make the salesman happy.  No one ever "needs" a new car; there are a ton of used ones out there.  I have purchased a few new cars in the past and I always make them go through the full circle and play the dealers against each other.  No matter how popular a car is I will never pay more than sticker price on a new car (now I won't pay close) and I will never pay more than blue book on a used car.  This keeps me from ever getting a new Shelby or Challenger.

I this makes the poor dealership and salesman unhappy, so be it.  They make it up by taking advantage of younger inexperience buyers.

I had it narrowed down to a few models I wanted but could not make a deal that made me feel good.   Most GM dealers would say "you should have been here last month when we had employee pricing, they were cheaper then".   So I could have purchased it cheaper last month but this month I have to pay more; does this make sense?

Anyway I came to my senses and decided to continue to drive my 2003 Venture a bit longer.  The main thing is that I need a car that will haul pretty good size box of Cadillac parts to the post office/FedEx.  It would have been very nice to get one that also gets a bit better mileage and was nicer/newer to drive.  I like new cars but I don't need one.

I have people beat me down on my prices all the time and many times it means that I don't make a sale.  But with my parts there are a bit limited market for both sides.

There is not a lack of new cars or good deals; there is a lack of qualified buyers or new cars that people are willing to buy.  In 1991 you could buy a new GEO that got 58 mpg, now the best you can do is in the high 30's.  New car makers have put quality and research on hold.  You cannot buy a better car today than you could 15 years ago; only a new one to replace the one you already have.

TED

Ted, I believe that for the most part we are on the same page.  Myself I have always wanted a new car?  Why?  Sort of long story, but basically I hated having to deal with service departments, more then I did the sales department, so once out of warranty, I got a new car.  Cost effective?  Not at all, but it works for me.  About 20 years ago I discovered the joys of leasing, which basically was no haggling!  Of course as leasing became more popular and cut down on new car sales, the dealers found ways to pad the profit, such as clerical fees of about $500 for having a clerk run the papers through a computer!  Its still easier to lease then buy, buy just finding out the residual.

Allow me to offer another contrarian view point.  In spite of what the big 3 manufactures say, the results of them being put out of business, will not be as devastating as they make it out to be, at least to the workers and suppliers.  Why?  Because the 10 million cars that the manufactures wont be producing any more, will be made by the better managed manufacturers such as Toyota, and these cars will need radios, door knobs etc.

All I am saying is that currently the dealers and sales people are in a desperate situation, and yes brought on by themselves, and I don't see no reason to kick a man or woman when they are down.  When it comes to replace my leased vehicle, I will give GM first shot at me, as I have done since 1966.  I will approach them with a sense of "I am here to help you, what can you do for me?".  If they start with their usual selling practices, I am out of there, as I did when I last was shopping for a replacement vehicle.  If none of them are willing to deal, then I will look elsewhere.