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Exhaust Manifold Leak

Started by Baza, December 19, 2008, 04:44:19 AM

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Baza

Hi Guys I am looking for some advice please.
My 1963 Series 62 Cadiillac Convertible has an exhaust blow from the rear cylinder of the left hand bank (Drivers Side). I havwe a new set of gaskets all ready to be replaced but am not sure if this job can be done with the engine in place.  It seems difficult to get at the two bolts at either end of the exhaust manifold with any form of socket and a ring spanner is awkward on a couple of the bolts. Obviously this manifold has not been disturbed for many years if ever and everything seems extremely tight and rusted-up.
Wondered if anyone has done this job and can offer some advice as to the best/easiest way to tackle this, as at present the car resembles the sound of a tractor rather than the beautiful V8 burble that it should be. Does the engine have to come out? Is this job better done on a lift? Help Please.
Look forward to any assistance.
Manyt  thanks
Barry
Barry Ashdown

Ohio57-62Sedan

If I was a bettin man and I am...  ::)  I would say you can do it in the car.. you might have to heat the head & manifold up with a torch.. to get the bolts out.. heck I was working on a 99 last night and two bolt's broke off the manifold flange.. the torch is your friend...

35-709

I don't have the shop manual for the '63 (you should) but I am betting that it will say the first order of business when removing the exhaust manifolds is to remove the engine.  That is the way it starts out for the '65 & '66 and other years.  However, as John Paul says it CAN be done, and I did it on my '66 --- can pretty much guarantee you won't like it one way or the other.  You will undoubtedly break some bolts and I had to remove the power steering hoses to get enough room to get at the front bolts with a breaker bar as I remember, it was several years ago.
You will find the factory did not use gaskets but of course you will need to.  Look very carefully to be sure you do not have a cracked exhaust manifold, a common problem.   
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Ohio57-62Sedan

I would want to paint everythig too just to make it all pretty 'n shiny  too..

Baza

Quote from: Ohio57-62Sedan on December 19, 2008, 11:41:43 AM
I would want to paint everythig too just to make it all pretty 'n shiny  too..
Thanks a lot for the suggestion and help, I'll have to give it a try over the Christmas period. Really need to do the job in-situ if possible as the car is parked out in the open and do not have any cover to work under. Not the best of situations in the British weather.
Thanks again and Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.
Regards
Barry
Barry Ashdown

Baza

Quote from: Geoff Newcombe #4719 on December 19, 2008, 11:02:03 AM
I don't have the shop manual for the '63 (you should) but I am betting that it will say the first order of business when removing the exhaust manifolds is to remove the engine.  That is the way it starts out for the '65 & '66 and other years.  However, as John Paul says it CAN be done, and I did it on my '66 --- can pretty much guarantee you won't like it one way or the other.  You will undoubtedly break some bolts and I had to remove the power steering hoses to get enough room to get at the front bolts with a breaker bar as I remember, it was several years ago.
You will find the factory did not use gaskets but of course you will need to.  Look very carefully to be sure you do not have a cracked exhaust manifold, a common problem.   
Thanks for the help, unfortunately garages over here are not built for the size of older American cars so she has to stay out in the open (albeit with a cover over her) so looks like my only option is to do the job in-situ, if poss.
Am trying to get a hold of a Shop Manual at the moment, as I purchased one of those on a CD and it seems so difficult to find and follow through doing a job using one of these.
Thanks again and best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.
REgards
Barry
Barry Ashdown

JohnA

Quote from: Baza on December 19, 2008, 04:44:19 AM
...It seems difficult to get at the two bolts at either end of the exhaust manifold with any form of socket and a ring spanner is awkward on a couple of the bolts. Obviously this manifold has not been disturbed for many years if ever and everything seems extremely tight and rusted-up....



Baza,

Working clearance will be tight, but the biggest hurdle on this job will to be avoid breaking off any manifold to head bolts. Breaking a bolt will cause a serious setback.

I have some experience in extracting rusted, seized and broken, bolts. I have successfully extracted many badly corroded exhaust bolts. Some 3/8 bolts and studs that had been corroded as thin as nails, yet were turned out intact.

If the manifold project was mine, I would first take a couple minutes to inspect and decide if the bolts are clean enough to chance turning them out by their heads; they probably are not.

On all but the cleanest assembly I would probably cut the heads off of the bolts and slide the manifold away from the cylinder head. When working in the chassis, once the manifold is slid away from the head,  the bolts may require a second cut, to allow clearance for manifold removal.

Having just the headless bolts to work with offers many benefits, especially that the bolts are much more accessible for concentrated heating. Since the bolts are no longer under tension strain, you can be sure that any resistance felt while turning is from the threads themselves.

Try to turn the stubs by clamping with a pair of like new USA Vise-Grips. Try to gently rock back and forth, very little torque should be applied when rocking, hardly more than the weight of the Vise-Grips.

Of course you'll probably still have to use your usual favorite tricks such as soaking, heating, cooling and tapping. One of my favorites is to gently vibrate and rattle the fastener with an air chisel.

Good Luck,

John

Glen

Patience is very important when removing stuck bolts.  It is very critical not to force the bolt.  Once the bolt moves a little bit it is as good as out.  But you still need to use a lot of patience.  If the bolt move even as little as 1/8th of a turn you can get it out by repeatedly tightening and loosening the bolt.  If you can loosen it by a small amount stop when it begins to bind and back off a little then you can loosen a little more; each time gaining a little bit. 

It helps to put penetrating oil on the bolt too.  Each time you turn the bolt in a tightening direction you track oil deeper into the threads which obviously helps. 

It’s very important when you reassemble the part to use anti-seize.  It will make it so much easier to remove the bolt the next time. 

Glen
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Mike Welch

On removing the head bolts (and assuming you have the original 9/16" bolts)  use a 6 point 14mm hardened 1/2" drive socket to back them out.  A 14mm socket is slightly smaller than a 9/16" but will fit on the 9/16" bolt. The 6 point 14mm socket vs the 12 point socket will give you a very snug fit.
Mike Welch
The Original 63 & 64 Cadillac Community
Serving 63 & 64 Enthusiasts SINCE 2000
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/

Chris McBride

#9
The 63-64 group forum has a search function.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/

Removal of the manifolds is frequently discussed there and a search will surely bring up several hundred posts.  I’ve attached some links below from that group and its MSN predecessor; they may have some helpful information.

This is a true knuckle buster of a job; far easier when heads are removed but is theoretically possible with manifolds in car.  Most report that either removing the head or the inner fender well was necessary.  Some say attacking from underneath also is helpful for some of the bolts.

As stated, some success reported by a lengthy pre soak with PB Blaster; however, you simply can’t get that much of a loosening agent onto such a bolt.   A torch is sometimes still needed to assist in the removal  but a good socket (1/2 drive) with a breaker bar for leverage also helps

A small but powerful pneumatic wrench is a major asset.

Bolts are also prone to snapping.  Make sure you have access to replacements since they also weaken through the years and may require replacing even if removed intact.  Snap a bolt and you’ll probably guarantee that you’ll be removing the head.

Other questions you may need to address:  do the manifolds need machining/decking; gasket/sealant; bolt replacements?

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/message/21592

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/message/8166

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/messages/22894?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/message/28

http://groups.msn.com/196364CadillacCommunity/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=5391&LastModified=4675365261335763264

You will need to find and click on the "expand messages" button to see the entire thread on the the links that open up in the Yahoo site.

HTH and good luck.

Chris McBride

Mike Welch

Thanks Chris, had to run for Xmas dinner!
Mike Welch
The Original 63 & 64 Cadillac Community
Serving 63 & 64 Enthusiasts SINCE 2000
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_6364_club/