HT4100 FAIL!

[nycnftm]

Hello, my first post...

I was considering replacing the engine in my 83 Eldorado Biarritz  .  I either need a new engine or sell the car.  I believe I have head gasket failure. I'm losing coolant (water) everytime I drive the car. Recently I replaced the radiator, at the time the shop put in magic in a bottle head gasket fixer.  The mechanic said, sell it, run away, but of course I didn't listen.  When I do drive it, there is a bottom end knock when you idle not when accelerating.  Other than the knock and the loss of coolant it runs ok.  I want to know my options.  What would it run to put a rebuilt Chevy 350 in there.  Or is there something else I could try.  I spent $1000 fixing it this year and do not want to spend more than another $1000.  If all else fails I will try to sell it and recoup some of my money.  The body is straight and I think I can sell the rear E&G kit for about $400.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

It doesn't sound good, and probably will throw a leg out of bed if you keep driving it.

But, I have heard that the 425 engine will fit, but not sure what changes have to be made.

Even a 4.5 could fit, as one of the Modified Chapter people is doing a 4.5 conversion.

Come on over and visity us at the Modified Chapter Website at www.modifiedcadillac.org   We are there to assist.

Bruce,
President
MCLC

[TonyZappone #2624]

We owned a Cadillac store when those cars were new, and indeed they were nightmares, right from the beginning.  As the years went by, they corrected the problems , one by one.  If you really want to keep the car, check the availability of a GM "crate" engine.  Several of our customers installed them, and they reported that they are bulletproof.  Tony

[Ted in Olympia WA]

|I thought that GM sold out all of their HT4100 crate engines?

TED

[TJ Hopland]

No more 'crate' engines from GM, they dont even have the first gen northstars.  There are some shops that do them and have a good reputation.  Now days just about any non small block chevy is going to be fairly expensive to have rebuilt.   A chevy motor would be about the most difficult to fit since it never was an option.  The transmission is Buick, Olds, Pontiac, or Cadillac plus it needs a special oil pan to clear the drive shaft.  A cast iron cadillac motor was standard for 81 so all the proper parts did exist.  That was the 472/500/425/368.  Finding all the proper parts and weight would be the issues.  The most common engines other than the 4100 for those cars would have been the olds.  The olds were used in the 79 and some 80 eldos.  They were also the most common motors in the 79-85 Toronados and a few of them were also in the Riv's.  The Rivs had a lot of Buick V6's.   All the diesels were Olds.  The later Toros and Rivs had the 307 which was the motor that was in the 85-90 Broughams.  If you have a mechanic that can do the swap keep an eye out for a Toronado, I see those for sale all the time in my area fairly cheap.

Do you live in a place that has emissions testing?  If you do the olds swap from a later model may be your only option other than rebuilding the original.  I think most states will allow you to go to a later model motor as long as you transfer all the emissions equipment and it was a factory option for the same family of cars.

[Walter Youshock]

DEFINITELY STOP DRIVING IT!!!!  SHE'S GONNA BLOW!!!

One morning, I was driving my '82 Brougham to work.  Half-way, it started to knock.  Leaving work, less than a mile away it went: "tick, tick TICK, TICK  BOOM!!!".  It threw a rod, shattered a piston and the block split.  About 30k prior to that, I had the gaskets and all that done at a Cadillac dealer.  The car was always worked on by the same dealer from the time I bought the car.  It was fine until 148k.

I did put a "new" 4100 in it, but the car was never the same.  Take the knocking as a warning.  She will leave you stranded.

[35-709]

You might try the Cadillac HT 4100 Chapter for more help ----  http://www.ht4100.com/  You will find all sorts of information and help there, including engine swaps.  Whatever you do it is certain to cost well over $1,000, and more than the car is probably worth to get the car on the road again, unless you can do it all yourself.

BTW --- since you didn't take your mechanic's advice you should definitely take Walter Youshock's advice!

[Dave Shepherd]

The 4.1 is no longer available as mentioned, the 4.5 is a direct replacement and is available from many sources.

[TJ Hopland]

I thought the 4.5 (and 4.9) was only transverse?   Even though the Eldo is FWD the engine was still front to back.

That 4100 chapter link is not much other than a few pictures and some broken links.   Did it ever have anything to it or am I missing something?

[35-709]

Well, yes --- the 4100 link I posted used to have a lot more to it.  I went and checked further for myself, too bad.  Are any HT4100 chapter members out there that can tell us what happened to the chapter?

[Matt CLC#18621]

Cut your losses, there will ALWAYS be another nice 79-85 Eldorado out there for the taking.  I went separate ways with my 85 Biarritz that had absolutely no engine problems at all with 92K.  I let it go b/c it wasn't the color I wanted (it was triple blue) and it didn't have a Moonroof.

Matt
CLC# 18621

[76eldo]

The following link works, and has always been accessible:

http://www.ht4100.com/

The problem with swaps in these cars is that you can't really get the ECM to work correctly without all of the proper inputs.  Since the trans, cruise, and climate control is operated by the ECM, what most people do is get their 4100's rebuilt, or get a Jasper replacement.

You also need to replace the oil coolant lines and radiator to maintain the Jasper warranty.

The problem is that the value of rebuilding and installing a motor far exceeds the value of the car, unless it's an 84 or 85 convertible.

It's a real shame that Cadillac saddled us with that motor because they are some really good looking cars, and could have been very useful as an entry level collector car, but that motor gives people a bad taste.

I have owned a bunch, and still have an 85 Eldo convert.

If you can find a nice 79 or 80 Eldorado you can retain some parts, and sell off a lot of other parts on ebay.

I found, and paid a lot for the 80 convertible shown below, but in 1980, Cadillac was using a "real" Cadillac engine.  Not one of their best, but it's a 368 all steel engine, in the same family as the 472/500/425, and any of those can be a bolt in swap.

Good luck in dealing with this.

Brian

[Johnny]

I feel the original posters pain.  As many know I have a '85 Eldo, that I ordered and bought new with under 30K.  The car is a senior winner at a Grand National, and performs flawlessly...............but always in my mind is the "history" of these engines.  I have read everything I could get my hands on about these engines, and so far so good.  If this engine ever fully failed, I would be faced with the dilemma "What do I do now?".  Keep it and repair it, or cut my losses?  While there is a strong emotional tie to this car, since I have had it since it rolled off the truck some 24 years ago, I am not that sure I would want to go through the expense of an engine replacement.  In stead of spending money replacing then engine, I think I would put it toward getting a nice 70's Cadillac, preferably a Fleetwood.

[Matt CLC#18621]

Brian

Did you sell the 1960 Biarritz?


Matt
CLC# 18621

[Matt CLC#18621]

I found, and paid a lot for the 80 convertible shown below, but in 1980, Cadillac was using a "real" Cadillac engine.  Not one of their best, but it's a 368 all steel engine, in the same family as the 472/500/425, and any of those can be a bolt in swap.

Good luck in dealing with this.

Brian

This owner believes to own the only 1982 Hess and Eisenhardt Eldorado convertible!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1982-Cad-Eldorado-convertible-by-Hess-Eisenhardt-co_W0QQitemZ270322055624QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item270322055624&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[Johnny]

This owner believes to own the only 1982 Hess and Eisenhardt Eldorado convertible!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1982-Cad-Eldorado-convertible-by-Hess-Eisenhardt-co_W0QQitemZ270322055624QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item270322055624&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

I wouldn't doubt it, as it has the worse engine that Cadillac ever produced!

[76eldo]

Matt,

Still have the 1960. I start it and drive it around weekly.

Regarding the world's only H and E Eldorado, that guy needs to do his homework a little better.

He will be lucky to see $2500.00 for that car right now.

Brian

[Johnny]

Matt,

Still have the 1960. I start it and drive it around weekly.

Regarding the world's only H and E Eldorado, that guy needs to do his homework a little better.

He will be lucky to see $2500.00 for that car right now.

Brian

Understand he only states that it might be the only in "existence", which I wouldn't doubt.

Forget him doing his homework, its any prospective buyers that should do their homework, les they be stuck with one of these cars, and not know what they are getting into.

[TJ Hopland]

The following link works, and has always been accessible:
http://www.ht4100.com/

What do you get when you go there?  I just get a home page, a single diagnostics page with a few links I did not try, a links page with nothing special on it, a blank contacts page, and a swap page with a dead link.   

Like Geoff said seems like there used to be more there.  Thats the bummer thing about the net, it takes one person to pay for the domain and make sure some one maintains stuff.  Things change for that person and all is lost.  I remember that eldocountry site, there was lots of good info there.

[TJ Hopland]

I just did some looking and found several listings for rebuilt motors ranging from $1500-2000.  Just make sure you find a place that has done them before.  In some ways modern shops are better equipped to deal with these now since aluminum is very common now days.  Back when these came out it was pretty rare.  With all the updates that were available I would lean to a rebuilt motor if I wanted to keep the car and was not a DIY person.  Any swap other than another identical 4100 is going to kill you from a labor standpoint if you have to use a by the book or by the hour shop.  If you are looking at a swap I would strongly recommend a donor car so you can get all the brackets and stuff that will be needed and then find someone to do it that is not just going to start the meter running.  There is also confusion out there as far as FWD / RWD goes so make sure you say that it IS NOT a transverse FWD to keep things straight.  I am fairly sure the eldos (sevilles, toros, and rivs) of that era used the RWD configured motors with a special oil pan.  It should not be an issue since the transverse V8's did not start till 85 but I would hate to hear that you got a new motor that would not bolt in because it was for a later transverse setup.