56 de Ville: unusual problem

[Roger Zimmermann]

In 2001, I let rebore the engine of my '56 Sedan de Ville. I had a cracked cylinder head, I had to do some work anyway. New pistons were fitted, heads planed and so on. I did the asembly of the engine using Fel-Pro gaskets, spraying a thin coat of Loctite sealer on both side of the head gaskets like I did on my 2 other cars. So far, so good. The engine is much more economical than before (about 13 liters per 100 km on long distances) and, from the 3 cars I have, it's the more reliable.
Last september, we came back from a trip (about 375 miles) without problem. I just noted, when the car was in the garage, that a large puddle of oil was under the rear of the engine (in fact a little bit of oil and water). I was already planing to redo the rear seal but, when I was under the car, I saw that water was coming between the block and head, both sides! And that after about 5000 miles since the overhaul of the engine. Sure, I can do an error during the assembly, but it would come out almost immediately.
I tried to retorque the RH head but, as the dyno wrench clicked at the same position (after loosing and torking each bolt one after the other) I concluded that I had to remove the heads, which I did some days ago by almost freezing temperatures (no heater in that old barn).
By looking at the gaskets, I saw no evident failure.

Did someone from you had the same experience?

I wanted to replace the head's bolts to be on the safe dide; they are not available.
A friend of mine said that I should use the Loctite 5923 on the head's gaskets.
I let check the heads for distortion; I will know the result tomorrow but I don't believe there will be something there.

Who has an idea?

Thank you for sharing your experience!

Roger

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

All I will say on this matter is that I never use any sealant of any kind when using FelPro Head Gaskets.

I clean both surfaces of the Heads and Block with BraKleen to remove all traces of oil and muck and install the Head Gaskets and torque down as specified in the Workshop Manual.

Bruce.

[Sweede64]

Check the block for any uneveness, was the gasket steel or fibre? Is fibre no sealant should be used.

[John Washburn CLC 1067 Sadly deceased.]

Roger,

As always I am confused. If the 56 is leaking coolant it should show traces of this on the head gasket. If you don't seen any evidence of leakage across the water ports something else is going on.

Second are you using good FelPro head gaskets, not the new fiber type? This also could be something to look at. It seems gaskets do make a difference, you need one with substance that has the metal on both sides and a liner in the middle (original ones used asbestos, I can send a picture). Bruce has his opinions, and I have my own, which says use copper coat when installing a new head gasket. I've had my 56 for over 35 years, drove it a lot (this is the 2 engine rebuild) and have never had a problem. The cheap metal ones can work, but need sealer. Not sure of the new fiber ones, have a set but not sure if I will ever use.

Finally, are you sure one of the heater hoses to the ranco heater valve is not leaking, or the heater hose that goes from the pump under the engine to the ranco valve? Far fetched, yes, but check it out.

As long as you are sure the coolant is leaking from the heads, this is all I can think of.

Good Luck

John Washburn

[J. Gomez]

Roger,

I'm not the expert here, so I just passing some feedback I once received from an old machine shop guy. He recommends using some type of head gasket sealant when both heads and block are of the same type of metal i.e. cast iron. When a combination of aluminum/cast or aluminum/aluminum the gaskets should be installed dry. BTW The repair manual also indicates applying head gasket sealant.

I do agree with John, if water is leaking from the sides, there should be some tracing or tale-tale marking on the area. The second, third, six and seventh head bolt row next to the exhaust manifold go through the water chamber, so these should offer some clues.

Also as suggested by John, there is the possibility the water leakage could be somewhere in the 10 miles of hoses. 

As for your first comment "I wanted to replace the head's bolts to be on the safe dide; they are not available.", if you are looking for the head bolts Coopers have them listed at http://www.coopersvintage.com/

Good luck.!

[Roger Zimmermann]

Thank you to all for the input. Here are responses to some questions: the gaskets are steel, with a liner in the middle. I got also the advice to use a sealer when water came out at the gasket of my Brougham. I reinstalled the haeds of the Brougham with new gaskets and sealer in the early nineties, I had no problem since with that car (except with the air suspension, this is another matter)
Indeed, the shop manual recommend the use of a seler on the head gaskets.
The trouble is definitively not coming from the heater hoses, they are fresh and tight. Further, when I was under the car, I could see clearly water/antifreeze stains on the block, under the heads. However, due to the position of the heads in the engine, chance is good the the water will run at the rear of the block, which was the case.
When I tried to retorque the RH head shortly after the trip, water came out at 2 bolts near the exhaust ports; I will have a check at this location for cracks.
When I removed the LH head last week, about 6 months after the trip, I had the impression that it was not so difficult to unscrew the bolts. I don't remember if it was the same on the RH side, it's too long ago.
I will check the block for any uneveness.
Indeed Coopers lists head bolts...This is a company which is almost impossible to deal with from abroad. They don't read e-mails, faxes are under a pile of unanswered papers and they do promises over the phone but no result. I was looking with Chris from the Cad Company for new bolts; I have him the hint; maybe he will be kind enough to order them for me, who knows. By the way, it's a shame the Coopers don't react with orders from abroad, they have good parts at very interesting prices, for example brass freeze plugs no other I know is offering.

I just got a phone call with the company doing the verification of the heads: they are flat. However, I asked him to put them under pressure to be sure that they have no cracks near the exhaust outlets

At the end, I just have the impression that the gaskets were from a bad batch and that they collapsed. This would explain why the problem came after 5000 miles. By the way, the heads of this car were overhauled in 1983; I used then the same gasket brand and had no problem.
Roger

[jaxops]

Good luck with the repair Roger.  If you can call Cooper's, get Cooper-himself on the phone and get him to take the order directly.  The girl there is nice but not efficient.  It's about the best way, and he is very helpful on the phone.

[Roger Zimmermann]

If you can call Cooper's, get Cooper-himself on the phone and get him to take the order directly.  The girl there is nice but not efficient. 

Thank you for the tip. This week, I had a pleasant surprise: a CLC member, William Hedge, offered me to order the bolts for me. I would like to thank William for his help. Let see what happen!
Roger

[Roger Zimmermann]

It seems that William Hedge has also trouble to deal with Coopers. According to his e-mail to me, this company is not easy to deal with. I was thinking that only orders from foreign countries are not honored, I was wrong.
Roger

[35-709]

Be interesting to hear just what is going on.  My dealings with Cooper's have been very good and I recommend them often.

[walt chomosh #23510]

Roger,
  You've had some responses from some of the top mechanics around.....but,....may I suggest contacting FelPro and get their opinion. After all,they made the gaskets....walt...tulsa,ok

[Roger Zimmermann]

.....but,....may I suggest contacting FelPro and get their opinion. After all,they made the gaskets....walt...tulsa,ok

That is a good suggestion Walt. I have no idea where they are and how I can contact them in a way they will understand me and, more important, that I will understand them. Don't forget I'm in Switzerland and my English over the phone is not the best! (and not on paper either)
Anyway, after discussing with other people, it seems that such gaskets should be retorqued after 500 or 800 miles, which I did not. On the piece of paper coming with the gasket set, no recommendation is done about that.
Roger

[Otto Skorzeny]

Hi Roger.

Just so you know, your English on "paper" ( the internet)  is better than that of most of the posters on this forum. You actually understand how to use punctuation and capital letters where necessary.

I wouldn't hesitate to call or write to Felpro. There's nothing to lose.

[Walter Youshock]

I don't remember what auto parts store I got this from, but I have a Fel-Pro Gasket Installation Manual dated 1992.  It's 84 pages and has a LOT of information.  I'm sorry now I didn't take more than one copy.

The back says:

Fel-Pro International
7450 North McCormick Blvd.
PO Box 1103
Skokie, IL
(708) 674-7700 or (312) 761-4500

Form No. 263-93, revised 9/93

It's so old there is no email address.

I can recall being told to NEVER use silicone on a trans gasket as the fluid will react with the silicone.  As for head gaskets, the book says there are 2 types--one does not have to be retorqued and the other does.  Most older design engines take the retorque design gaskets as it probably wasn't cost-effective to remanufacture them in the new design.

Maybe this book can answer some of your questions.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Here's Federal Mogul's website (the makers of the FelPro brand)

http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/AftermarketSolutions/NorthAmerica/SealingSolutions/Brands/Fel-Pro

[D.Yaros]

Don't forget I'm in Switzerland and my English over the phone is not the best! (and not on paper either)

Roger,

Well, you could have fooled me.  In fact, you did!  I have been following this thread, and was shocked, today, to read that you feel your english skills are lacking. 

[Roger Zimmermann]

  I have been following this thread, and was shocked, today, to read that you feel your english skills are lacking. 

Thank you Dave for the flowers! I have to admit that some posts writen here are sometimes lousy. If I'm writing here, I try to be clear enough that my questions can be answered; it takes some more time than in my mother language and I have to read two time to correct my spelling errors. A text full of errors or barely understandable has less chances to be answered.
On a regular basis I go in the forum of the American Car Club of France. Sometimes I don't understand what the young people write...At least, the CLC forum has some level.
Roger

[Philippe M. Ruel]

Roger,

I was wondering whether cylinder head bolts are bolted in "dead-end" tapered holes, or if any of these holes end in a water passage in the block - this could explain coolant leak in that location.

In this case, a layer of water sealant on bolt threads before installing could be the solution.

[Roger Zimmermann]

I was wondering whether cylinder head bolts are bolted in "dead-end" tapered holes, or if any of these holes end in a water passage in the block - this could explain coolant leak in that location.

Philippe,3 bolts are ending in a water passage on one side and 4 the other side. After discussion with Christian, this fact could be a factor.
Roger