1952 Caddy Oil change

[domer]

Hello everyone, please forgive me for bringing up this issue once again. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I still can't seem to grab the entire concept on the different types engine oils.  I will be dropping the oil pan in my 52 fleetwood this afternoon and would appreciate any tips, advice, recommendation on this process. I finally got around to pulling the oil filter from the canister and I couldn't believe how much sludge was in the canister and filter. It looked like it had not been changed in years. I have no clue as to what would be the best brand or type of oil to refill my engine with.  I picked up the oil pan gaskets from checker auto for about $15.00 along with some clear silicone and red RTV sealant.  Again, I certainly appreciate any input.
  Oh, I forgot to mention that the engine has never had a rebuild. This is why I'm a little hesistant to add the regular 10W-30.
Thanks very much
Dominique

[Philippe M. Ruel]

Those engines were supposed to work on single grade 10W to 30 engine oil. The cheapest mineral multi-grade oil available now is better than that.
On my own car, I use anything I can get between 15W40 and 20W50 (engine never rebuilt, plenty oil leaks from the rear main bearing seal).

[Otto Skorzeny]

Check this out you guys. It's oil specially manufactured and developed by the Classic Car Club of America. It's 15w-40

http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/about.html

Read about it. It's quite interesting.

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

Hi Dominique:

You seem to be on the right track.  Drop the pan, scrape out the crud with a putty
knife and use kerosese to clean it further.  Also, use kerosene to clean out the oil
filter housing.  Both would show plenty of sludge build up on an engine of your vintage.

Once you've done all of that, I would not hesitate to use a good (API Certified) grade of
10W-30 in your car.  Your engine is a 331 V8, and by 1955 Cadillac recommended that
10W-30 was the grade to use vs. the straight grades for that engine.  The multigrade
oils did not come into common use until 1955, which is why the older shop manuals do
not mention them.

I would recommend to change the oil, run it for about 500 miles or so, then change it and
the filter again to help clean the "crud" out of the system.  If you wish, eliminate about
1/3 a quart of oil and add some "Marvel Mystery Oil" to the crankcase for that first change.
This material has some very good solvents that will help clean things up. The product has been
around for 50 years and I've used it often when doing engine work.  You can find it in any
good auto parts store.

Any questions, please ask.

Good luck!

Mike

[dadscad]

If you find lots of sludge in there, I think I would go at least one step farther and pull the valve covers off, too, before you put the pan back on. Clean the heads around the valves and springs and the under side of the valve covers. Be sure the oil drain back holes in the heads are clear so oil will drain back to the pan and not pool in the valve area. If you are real ambitious, pull the intake and the valley pan that is under it. Clean all around the lifters and push rods.

Then as Mike suggests, use 10-30 and do early changes for a while.

Good luck,
David

[P W Allen 20193]

Dom: Something that you may or not be aware of. In order to get the pan down and out, you must drop down the the steering linkage out of the way by unbolting the Idler Arm from the right side of the frame. Two bolts. You have received good advice about cleaning out all the sludge that you can at the same time. When I did this job on my 53, I pulled the valve covers, valley cover and also the front cover(or timing chain cover), and replaced the front seal while I was at it. Good luck with it.

Paul

[domer]

First off, let me say thank you very much to everyone who has responded to my post. Everyone's input has been very very beneficial and would certainly appreciate much more.
This morning I picked up five quarts of 10W-30, marvel mystery oil, engine flush, kerosene, and a fram C4P oil filter. I also picked up a new fuel filter and a couple of torque wrenches
  It took me a little work on my back  but I finally removed the oil pan.  I couldn't believe how much sludge was sitting at the bottom of the pan.  The oil pump was loaded with sludge buildup. I am very surprised that it was able to move any oil. Needless to say, I also removed the oil pump and oil pan baffle. I dropped off the pan, oil baffle, and oil pump at a nearby auto stop.  The owner charged me $20.00 to have the parts dumped and washed in a cleaning tank.  I will be picking them up after I return from work on Tuesday.
Should I have the oil pump replaced, rebuilt or reuse my original pump after cleaning?  I did see a couple of oil pump rebuild kits on ebay.  Suggestions anyone? Are the oil pumps tough to rebuild? Advance auto zone quoted me at $75.00 for a rebuild kit and $140.00 to have my original pump rebuilt.
The shop manual states to tighten the nuts on the oil pan to 7 to 10 ft. lbs torque and the oil pump nuts to 25 to 30 ft. lbs torque. Is there a special type of torque wrench that is required  for these steps? The two torque wrenches that I picked up today will probably not work because of the angle of the bolts and the head sizes of the wrenches. The 2 stud mounted nuts that are on each end of the pan are especially tough to get to. I had to use my smallest socket wrench to get them off.  I haven't used the wrenches yet so I will probably return them when I get a chance.
Next, I will remove the filter canister and thoroughly clean it. There is a good amount of sludge sitting at the bottom of the canister. I will take everyone's  advice and pull the valve covers, valley cover,  and front cover. Once I pull all this off, what should I use to clean up the internals. 
Thank you very much
 

[dadscad]

If it were my car, I would either rebuild the pump or replace it with a new or rebuilt pump. You have already done the work to remove it, don't take a chance on the old pump and then have to re-do all the work to change it later if it is weak.

Pay close attention to the camshaft gear. If it is the original factory gear it will have plastic teeth. They are prone to fail starting around 60 - 100K miles. From your description of the sludge found in the oil pan, my bet would be your car has worn timing gears and chain. You would probably be wise to change them while you have the timing cover off the engine. Even if the plastic still looks to be in good condition, it is very old and could fail at any time.

Hope this helps,
David

[domer]

Thanks for the help. I will look for new a pump, timing gear and chain.  Any suggestions for some good vendors?
  A buddy of mine mentioned possible head gasket leaks because of the sludge  buildup in the pan.  Is this a likely possibility?
Thanks
Dominique

[homeonprunehill]

Thanks for the help. I will look for new a pump, timing gear and chain.  Any suggestions for some good vendors?
  A buddy of mine mentioned possible head gasket leaks because of the sludge  buildup in the pan.  Is this a likely possibility?
Thanks
Dominique

Dominique, I will add my two-cents to the others sugesstions. So far I like what I have seen.  Now for my two cents. No one tourched on what 10w30  oil will do for you, first you give no hint where you live, but if it gets cold there, the oil will get no  thicker then any 10W oil
regardless of how cold it gets. and the 30W will get no thinner then 30W reguardless of how hot it gets, which uses to puzzle me untill
I had it explained to me, seem as tho. macoroni  swells-when cooked, or heated-up.  Regardless of your decesion on your oil pump, make sure that you prime the pump with "white-grease" you can buy it at any auto-parts store.To clean-up the hard to clean areas ----use rags and putty-knifes. No amount of sludges has ever caused a head gasket leak,,,,yet   that  I've  heard of . HTH JIM P.S. The torque wrenches
that you have will work out just fine,just make sure that the bolt holes are still flat when checked  with a stright  edge.

[dadscad]

The suggestion of possible head gasket leaks, or cracks in the head/block because of the sludge build up would have been from coolant leaking into the engine internals. Coolant/water will cause sludge. It wouldn't hurt to do a pressure test of the cooling system before you dismantle it, that would tell if you had a possible leak. On the other hand, it is possible that the previous owners used non detergent oil and that was the cause of the sludge. Another cause of sludge is short trip duration that never completely heats the engine to fully evaporate condensate and unburned fuel.

Be sure to check the crankcase venting system for obstructions or blockage. A crankcase that isn't vented properly will sludge up also, because the normal combustion byproducts of unburned fuel and condensation are not vented out of the engine.

Good luck,
David

[P W Allen CLC# 20193]

Just a side note on the sludge thing. In the 50's at least, Cadillac recommended pulling the pan down and cleaning out the sludge every year!!

Paul

[domer]

Dominique, I will add my two-cents to the others sugesstions. So far I like what I have seen.  Now for my two cents. No one tourched on what 10w30  oil will do for you, first you give no hint where you live, but if it gets cold there, the oil will get no  thicker then any 10W oil
regardless of how cold it gets. and the 30W will get no thinner then 30W reguardless of how hot it gets, which uses to puzzle me untill
I had it explained to me, seem as tho. macoroni  swells-when cooked, or heated-up.  Regardless of your decesion on your oil pump, make sure that you prime the pump with "white-grease" you can buy it at any auto-parts store.To clean-up the hard to clean areas ----use rags and putty-knifes. No amount of sludges has ever caused a head gasket leak,,,,yet   that  I've  heard of . HTH JIM P.S. The torque wrenches
that you have will work out just fine,just make sure that the bolt holes are still flat when checked  with a stright  edge.

Thanks for your input!!  I am in the military and currently live/stationed in Colorado Springs, Colorado. 
What I actually meant to ask was if the suldge buildup a possible indication of a head gasket leak
Thanks very much

[domer]

The suggestion of possible head gasket leaks, or cracks in the head/block because of the sludge build up would have been from coolant leaking into the engine internals. Coolant/water will cause sludge. It wouldn't hurt to do a pressure test of the cooling system before you dismantle it, that would tell if you had a possible leak. On the other hand, it is possible that the previous owners used non detergent oil and that was the cause of the sludge. Another cause of sludge is short trip duration that never completely heats the engine to fully evaporate condensate and unburned fuel.

Be sure to check the crankcase venting system for obstructions or blockage. A crankcase that isn't vented properly will sludge up also, because the normal combustion byproducts of unburned fuel and condensation are not vented out of the engine.

Good luck,
David

Thank you! When I did pull the pan and oil pump, I did notice that the oil and sludge did have a rich smell to it.  The oil did have a smell of fuel to it.  A neighbor of mine had also mentioned a few months back that the car had a rich smell of fuel to it whenever I fired it up. I'm not sure if these two things are related to what you stated in your post.
Dominique

[domer]

Just a side note on the sludge thing. In the 50's at least, Cadillac recommended pulling the pan down and cleaning out the sludge every year!!

Paul

Yes Sir, I am pretty certain that the pan has never been dropped. The more responses I get from my initial post, the more motivated I get to give this baby all the attention it deserves.  I have owned a few Cadillacs but have never really needed to do much work to them besides the basic oil changes and smaller maintenance items.  I'm glad that I am finally able to do more than the regular basic stuff.  Although this may seem like small stuff to alot of you Caddy masters, I am more of the rookie type.  I am very eager to learn and take in every bit of knowledge, advice, and pointers from everyone out there...so please keep it coming. I am kicking myself in the butt right now because my father was always out there working on any car he could get his hands on. He would always ask me if I wanted to help out and learn a thing or two. And of course I would always say no because I wanted to go out and play. ha ha
I truly appreciate everyone who has added to my original post!!!! 

[homeonprunehill]

DOMER, I can believe you when you say that your Father uses to offer to teach you a thing or two about ,what has turned out to be "old-cars", my son, who is now 55 annd still know evertyhing, was the same way. By the way, I had a Brother that was in the ARMY at Ft. Carson. Stopped to see him once while he was there.That part of CO. can and does get as cold as ND. Sounds like you should take a look-see at the carb. Good advise to presuize the coolant system ,while you can. just don't  over presuize it. Go  by the max.presure stamped on the Rad. cap. If there is an" auto hobby shop"on Post, you should be able to check-out a manual rad.cap checker. Now to the "sludge" I failed to say that you should cleanout the oil return hole in the block and heads with a stiff wire attached to the rag. Just like cleaning a rifie barrell. lol, HTH, JIM

[35-709]

"The oil did have a smell of fuel to it."

If your oil has a smell of gasoline you could very well have a leaking fuel pump diaphragm which is pumping fuel into the crankcase.  This is a bad situation and should be checked out immediately!  As a safety precaution get the diaphragm replaced, if you can find one, or put a rebuilt pump on.

[harry s]

This before and after picture of lifters from a 1930 Cad V 8 is a good example of what to expect when going into the valve body of an old engine with sludge build up. The before picture doesn't show the several handfuls of sludge that were removed prior to removal of the lifters.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

Here are two photos of my 39 LaSalle engine before rebuilding.  The engine ran well in spite of this, but since I was doing a full restoration, pulled engine and had it rebuilt by Shepard's Automotive in Akron, Ohio.

Fred

[Jeff Maltby 4194]

Be sure to check the bottom of oil pan for acid rot.