Reliability of original 40 Spoke K.Hayes Wheels for '53?

[Ross Morgan #22943]

I spoke to a restorer of wire wheels today (Los Angeles) who's been in the trade for over 20 years and he raised concerns about using original 40 spoke wires IF the car was going to be used regularly.  It was his judgement, from experience, that by replacing the spokes with stainless, these would be strong enough to not snap/cause problems. The issue was the rim itself and possible cracking because of metal fatigue (due to age and use), and possibly exacerbated if radial tyres were used.

Some of his clients use the 48/56 spokes repro's for driving and keep a set of 40 spokes for the shows.  I was wondering if anyone has more information or indeed experienced problems with cracking?  I wonder what would happen if a rim cracked at say 70mph?  I guess it depends if it's a catastrophic failure or not?

My reason for asking is that I'm about to ship a set of 40 spoke Kelsey Hayes wheels to him for restoration.  I would prefer the originals if all okay.

I note on a previous post that someone had purchased wheels from the following company:  http://www.hobbycar.com/cadillac.html


Ross Morgan

[Otto Skorzeny]

Has this guy ever personally witnessed a 40 spoke rim disintegrating while on the road? I bet not. I bet he hasn't even seen one that could be proven to have fallen apart at high speed .

My guess is that it's one of those things everybody hears about but no one can really pin down. It's the sort of thing people always say they heard from somebody, etc. etc. but have no firsthand knowledge themselves. The whole thing with radial tires causing more stress on the rim is overblown to the point of incredulity. 

In my opinion, there is no reason not to use your original rims if they are properly repaired by a professional who understands how they're assembled and doesn't heat or force where it can cause metallurgical damage.

[Quentin Hall Australia]

       I would not discount the rim failure of older rims. I have had 3 rim failures of 57 sabres; one was at 60 mph and quite frightening. Luckily the Eldo and I survived.
        It would appear that the fatigue starts in the rolled inner edge of the rim. I was on a long cross country trip and got a flat on tubeless crossplies. THe tyre repairer put the reinflated wheel underwater. Tiny bubbles were escaping through the rim. He advised to just put a tube in and end of story. 500 highway miles later I realised that the bubbles were escaping from a fatigue in the rim. This later spread and tore apart the rim. THe one at 60 mph went 1/3 of the way around the rim.
        I also recall an incident where Elvis Presely had a Kelsey Hayes wire wheel collapse on a new 60's Thunderbird. It was widely publisized. Subsequently Kelsey Hayes added the number of spokes on the T birds.
         I have heard of a 54 Eldo having spokes collapse. In the restoration/rechroming process hydrogen embrittlement becomes an issue.
          I think it would be best to go the new stainless spokes rather than restoring the old spokes, though I have been told to use steel chromed nipples on stainless spokes . I am sure the wheel restorer will be able to advise.
                       

[Ross Morgan #22943]

I've just received an email from the wheel restorer with the following comments.

"The cracking problems I have seen are in the bead of the rim, typically on the back side where the tire lies on the rim.  Also, since the wheel has only 40 spokes, 20 long and 20 short, the short spokes hold the car up and keep the wheel round, the 20 long spokes keep the wheel running straight and true.  Thus, at any time, you really have only 10 short spokes holding the weight of the car at any moment.  So, if one breaks, the 9 spokes around the broken one have to carry more weight and the domino effect starts.  The other difference between the reproduction and original wheels is the safety bead that is rolled into the rim.  This is a hump that is rolled in right behind the area where the tire bead lays on the rim.  The original does not have this.  It is there so if a flat occurs, the tire bead will stay in place allowing you to slow down safely instead of the tire beads collapsing in to the center of the rim and rolling off the rim and damaging the fender or worse.  This feature was introduced in the late 50's and is standard on all rims since, both steel and alloy."

So, the "safety bead" is another consideration.  For me the more information or experiences that can be shared, the better.  Then I have to make a decision based on such things as "each time I take someone for a ride, would I be putting them in an unsafe situation?"  It's all a matter of balance!  Alot of tourists coming to Australia don't swim in the ocean because there are "too many sharks", ie, the fear has overcome the reality.

Ross.

[Quentin Hall Australia]

        I am leaning more and more towards 48 spoke repros which luckily were in the trunk of #412 when I got it . The 52 spoke repros look to busy on the 53s, and if someone wants to be really picky I can tell them I have the original 40 spoke Kelsey hayes wires at home.
       
        Q